This is similar to what I’ve done in the past to try to help coworkers, however, each time the bully has been management, which has unfortunately made the situation impossible to overcome. Choices became to quit or go numb and stay. I’ve seen this play out three times now.
Very difficult to use these strategies with more senior people because they ultimately have the power to continue to make your life more difficult as punishment. How long were you able to go numb and stay?
This is helpful and doable. I've done and recommended elements of your strategy to others. This post has inspired me to re-read On Bullshit by Harry G. Frankfurt. It's a short (yet intense) read that helped me spot and name bullshit with more precision and confidence.
Yes, and it was impossible to convince boards/upper management of the issue because they see the charming side only. I left each time myself, but I observed some people became emotionally numb to stay (mostly because they had to). Probably those people will have poor mental health going forward. I have been a witness most of the time, but it has still left a deep impact and sense of distrust when it comes to workplaces.
In my experience, even with well-documented evidence, you can never protect yourself against a bully, and any attempt to protect yourself only brings retaliation because they turn the narrative against you. I ended up giving my resignation each time and had to work towards recovery...
It's much harder to employ these tactics with a superior. Most people won't go along with it because they don't want to lose favour. It's a sad microcosm of society.
Do you think that a narcissist/bully could use these same tactics to activate their flying monkeys against their target? I guess they would anyway.
It can be so difficult to discern in situations of conflict. Facts and documentation are important yes, and, it comes down to how people are coached to perceive the facts, right?
Thanks Liz for your questions. The bully can employ these same tactics to hurt their target, except they'd be lying and fabricating evidence. This is more of the Machiavellian bully than your run of the mill vulnerable narcissist type.
It really does come down to coaching people to spot the behaviour pattern AND make accurate predictions of what comes next that will enable people to distinguish between bully and non-bully/victim
Im dealing with this at my workplace now. Every concern I’ve raised, brings retaliation.
My supervisors change every year, but their manager stays.
When I was shoved HR said no one else saw it. Then management put a dimmer on the light switch.
When repetitive use of the foot pedal damaged my feet, I started using the automatic timer. My supervisor had a box put on the timer so it can no longer be adjusted.
One of the bullies is out at rehab;he failed a random breathalyzer.
I was wrongfully accused of damaging a part and won a harassment grievance through the union.
Whoopdy do
Nothing changed.
In fact, when one of the guys damaged a part, and I helped save him from injury, he was not even disciplined.
The supervisors boss thanked him for not going to medical to report the injury!
I was all in for this until about the middle. My situation was tough, and if you see my "Open to Work" banner on LinkedIn, you'll figure out how my story ended.
My last company was incredibly thorough with interviews. I actually appreciated that because, once I got through the gauntlet, it was very clear that they vetted every single person intentionally. Every person who worked there was smart, kind, and capable.
Fast forward a bit over a year after I started, and we acquired a company. In doing so, I acquired a bully. He came from the acquired company, made fast friends with leadership, and his terribly arrogant ass set his whole life on ruining mine. I have absolutely no idea why.
I tried my best to stay clear of him, but the company decided to make a brand new department for him so he could have a "head of" title, and it was all over. I lived in complete sabotage.
I tried talking to my boss multiple times, but she just told me I'm an adult and I am old enough to deal with this myself. (I am 43. I am fully grown and, yes, I can handle stuff and don't "tattle" unless the situation's gotten desperate.) I tried going to HR, but I was told they work for the company not the employees, so they would not be having private conversations about workplace incidents with me. (I mean...????)
So then my boss loses her mind on me in my annual review two years after this has been going on and makes me go to mediation with my bully and HR. She accuses me of never telling her anything was wrong. Fine. Great.
The call with bully and HR was so creepy. He changed his face so many times to fit whatever narrative he was trying to fulfill for HR. I just sat there watching because I wasn't about to be involved in this while he showed his true self.
It was a small company -- around 55 people. I had no one who was willing to stand up for me, but I regularly got messages from people telling me they were sorry to see me being treated the way I was (either because they watched me get berated on team calls or beaten down on company Slack channels). Everybody was afraid to speak up. It was so awful.
I have screenshots and call recordings for days. I was building a case. By the time they laid me off, I was too exhausted to continue, so I just signed the papers.
I was all in for this until about the middle. My situation was tough, and if you see my "Open to Work" banner on LinkedIn, you'll figure out how my story ended.
My last company was incredibly thorough with interviews. I actually appreciated that because, once I got through the gauntlet, it was very clear that they vetted every single person intentionally. Every person who worked there was smart, kind, and capable.
Fast forward a bit over a year after I started, and we acquired a company. In doing so, I acquired a bully. He came from the acquired company, made fast friends with leadership, and his terribly arrogant ass set his whole life on ruining mine. I have absolutely no idea why.
I tried my best to stay clear of him, but the company decided to make a brand new department for him so he could have a "head of" title, and it was all over. I lived in complete sabotage.
I tried talking to my boss multiple times, but she just told me I'm an adult and I am old enough to deal with this myself. (I am 43. I am fully grown and, yes, I can handle stuff and don't "tattle" unless the situation's gotten desperate.) I tried going to HR, but I was told they work for the company not the employees, so they would not be having private conversations about workplace incidents with me. (I mean...????)
So then my boss loses her mind on me in my annual review two years after this has been going on and makes me go to mediation with my bully and HR. She accuses me of never telling her anything was wrong. Fine. Great.
The call with bully and HR was so creepy. He changed his face so many times to fit whatever narrative he was trying to fulfill for HR. I just sat there watching because I wasn't about to be involved in this while he showed his true self.
It was a small company -- around 55 people. I had no one who was willing to stand up for me, but I regularly got messages from people telling me they were sorry to see me being treated the way I was (either because they watched me get berated on team calls or beaten down on company Slack channels). Everybody was afraid to speak up. It was so awful.
I have screenshots and call recordings for days. I was building a case. By the time they laid me off, I was too exhausted to continue, so I just signed the papers.
This is similar to what I’ve done in the past to try to help coworkers, however, each time the bully has been management, which has unfortunately made the situation impossible to overcome. Choices became to quit or go numb and stay. I’ve seen this play out three times now.
Very difficult to use these strategies with more senior people because they ultimately have the power to continue to make your life more difficult as punishment. How long were you able to go numb and stay?
This is helpful and doable. I've done and recommended elements of your strategy to others. This post has inspired me to re-read On Bullshit by Harry G. Frankfurt. It's a short (yet intense) read that helped me spot and name bullshit with more precision and confidence.
Yes, and it was impossible to convince boards/upper management of the issue because they see the charming side only. I left each time myself, but I observed some people became emotionally numb to stay (mostly because they had to). Probably those people will have poor mental health going forward. I have been a witness most of the time, but it has still left a deep impact and sense of distrust when it comes to workplaces.
In my experience, even with well-documented evidence, you can never protect yourself against a bully, and any attempt to protect yourself only brings retaliation because they turn the narrative against you. I ended up giving my resignation each time and had to work towards recovery...
Often times, the bully is a manager/supervisor.
It's much harder to employ these tactics with a superior. Most people won't go along with it because they don't want to lose favour. It's a sad microcosm of society.
Nathalie, I like this framework.
Do you think that a narcissist/bully could use these same tactics to activate their flying monkeys against their target? I guess they would anyway.
It can be so difficult to discern in situations of conflict. Facts and documentation are important yes, and, it comes down to how people are coached to perceive the facts, right?
There is so much to learn and navigate here…
Thanks Liz for your questions. The bully can employ these same tactics to hurt their target, except they'd be lying and fabricating evidence. This is more of the Machiavellian bully than your run of the mill vulnerable narcissist type.
It really does come down to coaching people to spot the behaviour pattern AND make accurate predictions of what comes next that will enable people to distinguish between bully and non-bully/victim
Thanks Nathalie. This helps clarify.
Im dealing with this at my workplace now. Every concern I’ve raised, brings retaliation.
My supervisors change every year, but their manager stays.
When I was shoved HR said no one else saw it. Then management put a dimmer on the light switch.
When repetitive use of the foot pedal damaged my feet, I started using the automatic timer. My supervisor had a box put on the timer so it can no longer be adjusted.
One of the bullies is out at rehab;he failed a random breathalyzer.
I was wrongfully accused of damaging a part and won a harassment grievance through the union.
Whoopdy do
Nothing changed.
In fact, when one of the guys damaged a part, and I helped save him from injury, he was not even disciplined.
The supervisors boss thanked him for not going to medical to report the injury!
I need the job. Not the harassment
I was all in for this until about the middle. My situation was tough, and if you see my "Open to Work" banner on LinkedIn, you'll figure out how my story ended.
My last company was incredibly thorough with interviews. I actually appreciated that because, once I got through the gauntlet, it was very clear that they vetted every single person intentionally. Every person who worked there was smart, kind, and capable.
Fast forward a bit over a year after I started, and we acquired a company. In doing so, I acquired a bully. He came from the acquired company, made fast friends with leadership, and his terribly arrogant ass set his whole life on ruining mine. I have absolutely no idea why.
I tried my best to stay clear of him, but the company decided to make a brand new department for him so he could have a "head of" title, and it was all over. I lived in complete sabotage.
I tried talking to my boss multiple times, but she just told me I'm an adult and I am old enough to deal with this myself. (I am 43. I am fully grown and, yes, I can handle stuff and don't "tattle" unless the situation's gotten desperate.) I tried going to HR, but I was told they work for the company not the employees, so they would not be having private conversations about workplace incidents with me. (I mean...????)
So then my boss loses her mind on me in my annual review two years after this has been going on and makes me go to mediation with my bully and HR. She accuses me of never telling her anything was wrong. Fine. Great.
The call with bully and HR was so creepy. He changed his face so many times to fit whatever narrative he was trying to fulfill for HR. I just sat there watching because I wasn't about to be involved in this while he showed his true self.
It was a small company -- around 55 people. I had no one who was willing to stand up for me, but I regularly got messages from people telling me they were sorry to see me being treated the way I was (either because they watched me get berated on team calls or beaten down on company Slack channels). Everybody was afraid to speak up. It was so awful.
I have screenshots and call recordings for days. I was building a case. By the time they laid me off, I was too exhausted to continue, so I just signed the papers.
I was all in for this until about the middle. My situation was tough, and if you see my "Open to Work" banner on LinkedIn, you'll figure out how my story ended.
My last company was incredibly thorough with interviews. I actually appreciated that because, once I got through the gauntlet, it was very clear that they vetted every single person intentionally. Every person who worked there was smart, kind, and capable.
Fast forward a bit over a year after I started, and we acquired a company. In doing so, I acquired a bully. He came from the acquired company, made fast friends with leadership, and his terribly arrogant ass set his whole life on ruining mine. I have absolutely no idea why.
I tried my best to stay clear of him, but the company decided to make a brand new department for him so he could have a "head of" title, and it was all over. I lived in complete sabotage.
I tried talking to my boss multiple times, but she just told me I'm an adult and I am old enough to deal with this myself. (I am 43. I am fully grown and, yes, I can handle stuff and don't "tattle" unless the situation's gotten desperate.) I tried going to HR, but I was told they work for the company not the employees, so they would not be having private conversations about workplace incidents with me. (I mean...????)
So then my boss loses her mind on me in my annual review two years after this has been going on and makes me go to mediation with my bully and HR. She accuses me of never telling her anything was wrong. Fine. Great.
The call with bully and HR was so creepy. He changed his face so many times to fit whatever narrative he was trying to fulfill for HR. I just sat there watching because I wasn't about to be involved in this while he showed his true self.
It was a small company -- around 55 people. I had no one who was willing to stand up for me, but I regularly got messages from people telling me they were sorry to see me being treated the way I was (either because they watched me get berated on team calls or beaten down on company Slack channels). Everybody was afraid to speak up. It was so awful.
I have screenshots and call recordings for days. I was building a case. By the time they laid me off, I was too exhausted to continue, so I just signed the papers.