I published a piece about the sources of woman on woman aggression in the workplace. Some of the comments the post about the piece received on LinkedIn surprised me because they used a number of techniques to distract from and discredit the content of the post because they disagreed with the photo used or the interpretation of the photo.
This fascinated me and got me thinking about the subtleties of woman of woman aggression that can progress into bullying and how these subtleties manifest in interactions between women. I’m releasing a piece on this shortly!
Now I don’t want to leave my men readers out and will say that this affects you too. Whether it’s women on your team, your employees, your employers - you can be caught in the crossfire or inadvertently stoking the fire of conflict as described here.
Even when statistics report up to 80% of bullying incidents in the workplace are woman on woman, I want to understand why some women (and men) deny that woman on woman aggression actually happens.
Here are my questions:
Why do some women (and men) deny the existence of bullying and aggression between women?
What’s are the beliefs and motives driving denial and attempts to shut down discussions about woman on woman bullying in the workplace?
I’m looking forward to seeing your perspectives and responses to these questions and more importantly, giving others the opportunity to see different perspectives about the causes of women on women bullying, a constellation of narcissistic behaviours, at work.
Thank you for reading, supporting, sharing, subscribing and commenting below,
"Please review rape cases and female jurists... Ive seen cases where they devalue the victim*** its horrible Since Im a kid Ive always had more male friends than female... if ur attractive n successful some women will always be envious and disparaging instead of supportive... Ive had endless encounters where women flirt with my partner or even eyeball him and ignore me. I go out of my way to only speak to the woman if its a couple - so she knows Im on her side... My mom got me thru it all... strong women support women***"
People deny the existence of bullying because it’s one of the only form of abuse that is still rewarded and it is not yet considered taboo. Quite the opposite, targets are the ones who are scrutinized, not the bullies.
The beliefs and motives I’m sure vary quite a bit but given my background growing up in a cluster b family system I would say it is all derived from cluster b family system dynamics. Addiction, codependency attachment and personality disorders, mood disorders, you name it. Cluster b families keep unimaginable secrets and if you are born into them, you are programmed out of the womb to pretend things are ok when they are not. Many cluster b families deny abuse because it allows them to continue abusing. People do what works.
Your statement "People deny the existence of bullying because it’s one of the only form of abuse that is still rewarded and it is not yet considered taboo" gave me goosebumps! Narratives of women 'taking initiative' 'having grit' 'going after what she wants' turns a blind eye to HOW these women are 'getting ahead'. So many are trained in their families to either bully or not see the red flags to being a target.
Really appreciate your link between cluster b families and re-enactment in the workplace. I wish more people can see this parallel! Thank you!
Thank you Nathalie for all of the great work you are doing. In the past few years I’ve been helping current and former targets make exit plans and land new opportunities. Time and time again the same pattern kept revealing itself. This same pattern I too came upon when healing from being targeted. You can’t research workplace bullying without bumping up against narcissistic abuse. It’s impossible. It’s a matter of when not if you will come to this understanding.
Growing up in a cluster B family means many things. You will either identify with the oppressor or you will identity with the oppressed. That sets the stage for all of your relationships moving forward. At home, at work, with friends, neighbors. It took over a dozen times being targeted and bullied at work that I finally understood I was the common denominator. The last bullying episode nearly took me out.
**Making the link between narcissistic abuse, being born into cluster b family systems, and workplace bullying - it literally saved my life.
Agree. I had two serious incidents of bullying one a woman who went to extremes in public and another by a group of men. Those in positions of power did nothing but tell me to rise above it. Forget about it. The organisation went through several investigations including WHS. It's really about a lack of courage and in this case knowledge. It's too convenient to maintain the status quo. It leads to a loss of quality employees. Poor business decision.
So many organisations are like cashed up emotionally neglectful parents who are like "kids, just work out it between you two...we're busy right now" or "you should just be able to brush it off otherwise you might not be strong enough to be here."
It's sick and like you said, organisations lose good people. And so they should.
Oh yes, I was told to be “cold and efficient” and keep my “head down” as if that’s some recipe for success with someone who is pathological. If it wasn’t so ignorant and blissfully unaware it would be funny.
Yes and I’m sorry to hear this happened. What a mess it all ends up being and for what? The thought that kept running through my mind as it was happening was, “There’s no way the executive team would be ok with this if they were invisible observers right now!” All of my alarm bells were going off. Yet bullies are so confident, so sure of themselves. That’s what throws people. Confidence is a huge part of authority and bullies capitalize on this.
Bullies actively block an organizations access to talent and somehow it’s acceptable. Why? Because bullies control the narrative and they know in todays world where optics rule, they can remain in control through smearing and gaslighting. Like I always say, for bullies it’s about looking like a good person, not actually being one. You’d be surprised how easy that is to achieve in this climate.
Thanks Christy. I was lucky enough to have ONE male ally who went to bat for me in the male group incident. But to be told by the Chair "what did you expect he was angry?"- Eesh. Women aren't permitted righteous anger. Cowardice needs company to allow this to continue.
This reminds me of the research around lateral violence and workplace incivility in nursing - which remains a profession dominated by women. The hazing, abuse and toxicity, especially towards young nurses, is alarming. (Medical training and practice have our own serious forms of abuse)
Nursing culture is the WORST and most researched on WoW aggression. Yet, the denial exists within the community. How dehumanised are the senior nurses that they can't see what they're doing to juniors! If it's just status quo, then of course no one will openly describe how effed up it.
Sadly I must agree with you all. Bullying is a dangerous, invisible weapon of narcissistic women, specially in educational institutions.
It starts in elementary schools all the way to higher education. It seems as women got this nasty talent down packed. I’m a 65 year old professional, a clinician and an educator. And always been an advocate for women’s rights. Yet, Some of my most disheartening experiences I’ve had in my personal and professional life is from women. Women whom I hired, or those who were over me, or just lived next door.
I wish someday those female bullies would understand that world is always harder on women we need to give each other a break.
Apr 10, 2023·edited Apr 10, 2023Liked by Nathalie Martinek PhD
In the small sample of my experience, no group of people white ant women more than other women. This includes targeted slander, a campaign to undermine effectiveness and competency amongst other things.
The worst example, a team leader purposefully didn't identify nor train a woman on a specific program required to complete a task efficiently. This caused delays in the job completion that would eventually lead to performance management as the staff member had to complete the jobs without that tool. Ironically, that woman was in charge of performance management also.
It wasn't until other male staff looked into it, that they saw the obvious gap in training.
To this day, I have no idea what they hoped to achieve from this.
Based on your response, my theory behind why the woman team leader purposefully didn't provide training for the woman employee is that she wanted her to fail and eliminate her from the team after scapegoating her for incomplete work. My guess is that the not so bright team leader didn't think she'd get away with it OR she wanted to handball her to someone else so she executed the plan to make that happen.
Good thing another staff member intervened and sorted things out.
There is a misconception that bullying is gender based. Bullying can arise out of a genuine dislike for the other person can be perceived as behaviour based, Stress can also bring out the bully in some people. People can also believe that in certain positions they have to act a particular way because of what they have seen or how they have been trained even though they are not necessarily actually like that the word bullying is becoming
more noticeable today because of the uncertain times people are living in life Is coming on top of them. That’s not an excuse it something to look at then the other reasons that are displayed
Thank you Frank for this great analysis about the catalysts of bullying. It doesn't help that so many people's mental health declined during the pandemic without remedy that people can be more reactive and less conscious of their behaviour and impact on others.
I've worked for myself for over a decade but when I worked for other people, 9 times out of 10 I would rather report to a woman than to another man. If you're a reliable and competent worker, a female boss is more likely to notice and appreciate your efforts, whereas a male boss sees you as a threat and wants to squash you because he's afraid one day he'll end up reporting to you, or something.
Any time I've had this conversation with a woman friend or a client, they're usually surprised and say they'd rather work for a man than a woman, for exactly the same reasons + more overt bullying.
I suspect that the women who deny any form of toxic, abusive or manipulative behaviours ever occur between women either (a) hate men and want ways that men can be problematic to be the ONLY conversation allowed to happen, or (b) hate other women and likely are the perpetrators of the sort of abuses you're talking about. Possibly both A + B at the same time though.
Thank you Dave for sharing your experiences of working for men vs women bosses, as well as your response to the question. I suspect you're correct about why women deny bullying - they are (toxic) feminists who dislike/hate men and are perpetrators of bullying.
Dave, most possibly, nine out of ten. Women bosses are kinder to men employees than women employees. Which goes back again women on women aggression. A woman boss appreciates a male employee before a woman employee, she promotes a male employee before a woman, and so on.
I think the issue is deeper within the social framework of any cultural background that is being touched hear. Although, thank you all for this discussion.
Thanks Nathalie for your appreciated response. The issues surrounding bullying can be easily addressed and rectified.
Bullying can be perceived and arise through all sorts of situations. What is needed to reduce these incidences is pointing out that there are better ways to communicate. Having in place a specific HR policy that is stringently applied. Work shops with role play enactments. Then having regular reviews on how the whole process has panned out. With the right process in place behaviours and attitudes can change in a blink of an eye to generating a far more grown up friendly user environment.
From an anonymous reader
"Please review rape cases and female jurists... Ive seen cases where they devalue the victim*** its horrible Since Im a kid Ive always had more male friends than female... if ur attractive n successful some women will always be envious and disparaging instead of supportive... Ive had endless encounters where women flirt with my partner or even eyeball him and ignore me. I go out of my way to only speak to the woman if its a couple - so she knows Im on her side... My mom got me thru it all... strong women support women***"
People deny the existence of bullying because it’s one of the only form of abuse that is still rewarded and it is not yet considered taboo. Quite the opposite, targets are the ones who are scrutinized, not the bullies.
The beliefs and motives I’m sure vary quite a bit but given my background growing up in a cluster b family system I would say it is all derived from cluster b family system dynamics. Addiction, codependency attachment and personality disorders, mood disorders, you name it. Cluster b families keep unimaginable secrets and if you are born into them, you are programmed out of the womb to pretend things are ok when they are not. Many cluster b families deny abuse because it allows them to continue abusing. People do what works.
Agree on all fronts Christy.
Your statement "People deny the existence of bullying because it’s one of the only form of abuse that is still rewarded and it is not yet considered taboo" gave me goosebumps! Narratives of women 'taking initiative' 'having grit' 'going after what she wants' turns a blind eye to HOW these women are 'getting ahead'. So many are trained in their families to either bully or not see the red flags to being a target.
Really appreciate your link between cluster b families and re-enactment in the workplace. I wish more people can see this parallel! Thank you!
Thank you Nathalie for all of the great work you are doing. In the past few years I’ve been helping current and former targets make exit plans and land new opportunities. Time and time again the same pattern kept revealing itself. This same pattern I too came upon when healing from being targeted. You can’t research workplace bullying without bumping up against narcissistic abuse. It’s impossible. It’s a matter of when not if you will come to this understanding.
Growing up in a cluster B family means many things. You will either identify with the oppressor or you will identity with the oppressed. That sets the stage for all of your relationships moving forward. At home, at work, with friends, neighbors. It took over a dozen times being targeted and bullied at work that I finally understood I was the common denominator. The last bullying episode nearly took me out.
**Making the link between narcissistic abuse, being born into cluster b family systems, and workplace bullying - it literally saved my life.
Agree. I had two serious incidents of bullying one a woman who went to extremes in public and another by a group of men. Those in positions of power did nothing but tell me to rise above it. Forget about it. The organisation went through several investigations including WHS. It's really about a lack of courage and in this case knowledge. It's too convenient to maintain the status quo. It leads to a loss of quality employees. Poor business decision.
So many organisations are like cashed up emotionally neglectful parents who are like "kids, just work out it between you two...we're busy right now" or "you should just be able to brush it off otherwise you might not be strong enough to be here."
It's sick and like you said, organisations lose good people. And so they should.
Thank you so much for your comment E_Wood!
It takes courage to challenge this but sometimes it is necessary.
Oh yes, I was told to be “cold and efficient” and keep my “head down” as if that’s some recipe for success with someone who is pathological. If it wasn’t so ignorant and blissfully unaware it would be funny.
Yes and I’m sorry to hear this happened. What a mess it all ends up being and for what? The thought that kept running through my mind as it was happening was, “There’s no way the executive team would be ok with this if they were invisible observers right now!” All of my alarm bells were going off. Yet bullies are so confident, so sure of themselves. That’s what throws people. Confidence is a huge part of authority and bullies capitalize on this.
Bullies actively block an organizations access to talent and somehow it’s acceptable. Why? Because bullies control the narrative and they know in todays world where optics rule, they can remain in control through smearing and gaslighting. Like I always say, for bullies it’s about looking like a good person, not actually being one. You’d be surprised how easy that is to achieve in this climate.
Thanks Christy. I was lucky enough to have ONE male ally who went to bat for me in the male group incident. But to be told by the Chair "what did you expect he was angry?"- Eesh. Women aren't permitted righteous anger. Cowardice needs company to allow this to continue.
This reminds me of the research around lateral violence and workplace incivility in nursing - which remains a profession dominated by women. The hazing, abuse and toxicity, especially towards young nurses, is alarming. (Medical training and practice have our own serious forms of abuse)
Nursing culture is the WORST and most researched on WoW aggression. Yet, the denial exists within the community. How dehumanised are the senior nurses that they can't see what they're doing to juniors! If it's just status quo, then of course no one will openly describe how effed up it.
Thank you Alyssa for your comment!
Sadly I must agree with you all. Bullying is a dangerous, invisible weapon of narcissistic women, specially in educational institutions.
It starts in elementary schools all the way to higher education. It seems as women got this nasty talent down packed. I’m a 65 year old professional, a clinician and an educator. And always been an advocate for women’s rights. Yet, Some of my most disheartening experiences I’ve had in my personal and professional life is from women. Women whom I hired, or those who were over me, or just lived next door.
I wish someday those female bullies would understand that world is always harder on women we need to give each other a break.
In the small sample of my experience, no group of people white ant women more than other women. This includes targeted slander, a campaign to undermine effectiveness and competency amongst other things.
The worst example, a team leader purposefully didn't identify nor train a woman on a specific program required to complete a task efficiently. This caused delays in the job completion that would eventually lead to performance management as the staff member had to complete the jobs without that tool. Ironically, that woman was in charge of performance management also.
It wasn't until other male staff looked into it, that they saw the obvious gap in training.
To this day, I have no idea what they hoped to achieve from this.
Thanks for you comment Steve!
Based on your response, my theory behind why the woman team leader purposefully didn't provide training for the woman employee is that she wanted her to fail and eliminate her from the team after scapegoating her for incomplete work. My guess is that the not so bright team leader didn't think she'd get away with it OR she wanted to handball her to someone else so she executed the plan to make that happen.
Good thing another staff member intervened and sorted things out.
Love this case study!
There is a misconception that bullying is gender based. Bullying can arise out of a genuine dislike for the other person can be perceived as behaviour based, Stress can also bring out the bully in some people. People can also believe that in certain positions they have to act a particular way because of what they have seen or how they have been trained even though they are not necessarily actually like that the word bullying is becoming
more noticeable today because of the uncertain times people are living in life Is coming on top of them. That’s not an excuse it something to look at then the other reasons that are displayed
Thank you Frank for this great analysis about the catalysts of bullying. It doesn't help that so many people's mental health declined during the pandemic without remedy that people can be more reactive and less conscious of their behaviour and impact on others.
I've worked for myself for over a decade but when I worked for other people, 9 times out of 10 I would rather report to a woman than to another man. If you're a reliable and competent worker, a female boss is more likely to notice and appreciate your efforts, whereas a male boss sees you as a threat and wants to squash you because he's afraid one day he'll end up reporting to you, or something.
Any time I've had this conversation with a woman friend or a client, they're usually surprised and say they'd rather work for a man than a woman, for exactly the same reasons + more overt bullying.
I suspect that the women who deny any form of toxic, abusive or manipulative behaviours ever occur between women either (a) hate men and want ways that men can be problematic to be the ONLY conversation allowed to happen, or (b) hate other women and likely are the perpetrators of the sort of abuses you're talking about. Possibly both A + B at the same time though.
Thank you Dave for sharing your experiences of working for men vs women bosses, as well as your response to the question. I suspect you're correct about why women deny bullying - they are (toxic) feminists who dislike/hate men and are perpetrators of bullying.
Dave, most possibly, nine out of ten. Women bosses are kinder to men employees than women employees. Which goes back again women on women aggression. A woman boss appreciates a male employee before a woman employee, she promotes a male employee before a woman, and so on.
I think the issue is deeper within the social framework of any cultural background that is being touched hear. Although, thank you all for this discussion.
Thanks Nathalie for your appreciated response. The issues surrounding bullying can be easily addressed and rectified.
Bullying can be perceived and arise through all sorts of situations. What is needed to reduce these incidences is pointing out that there are better ways to communicate. Having in place a specific HR policy that is stringently applied. Work shops with role play enactments. Then having regular reviews on how the whole process has panned out. With the right process in place behaviours and attitudes can change in a blink of an eye to generating a far more grown up friendly user environment.
Frank