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Rooster's avatar

Because the guru can always reframe “success” so that it’s always subjective and ambiguous?

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Nathalie Martinek PhD's avatar

Exactly! They can do whatever they want, however they want knowing that others will follow their lead.

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Rooster's avatar

That makes complete sense when I think of it in the context of sport. I can drive the team down the field, complete passes, and lead the team into the end zone for the touchdown. That’s unambiguous success. It’s a metric. So that’s the last thing the guru would want, correct? That’s why being too idealistic can get us into trouble?

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Nathalie Martinek PhD's avatar

Yes - being too idealistic can get us into trouble I think because it puts pressure on the narcissistic leader to have to live up to our expectations which reverses roles of leader and follower. Knowing our place (according to them) is we follow unquestionably. Ambiguity keeps us on our toes - not theirs.

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Rooster's avatar

That just blew my mind a little. 🫠

I just finished watching a series about Hillsong Church and the scandals that rocked it. It seemed like it was a lot of competing wanna be gurus who were almost all cruel and manipulative.

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Nathalie Martinek PhD's avatar

Sounds like there was an attraction to the Dark Triad Daddy.

This gives us a glimpse into the level of likely childhood abuse and restrictive parenting hidden within the congregation.

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Rooster's avatar

Yes! Did you follow it? It was a cycle that perpetuated itself over and over and people were trying to prove themselves godly by emulating absolutely awful people who they’d taken on as their gurus. I felt like the abuse was the feeling of godliness that some of these broken people sought.

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Nathalie Martinek PhD's avatar

I didn't follow it. Abused people who don't engage in restorative trust rebuilding exercises tend to project their self-loathing on others, repeating the cycle of abuse. Nothing like dominating others to feel powerful in order to suppress the shame of powerlessness.

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