Wow. Powerful thoughts. You really know this topic. Thanks for sharing this. I’ve struggled with much of the analysis I’ve seen/read/heard around narcissism because it seemed too simplistic to actually capture what I perceive as a more complex and human condition. Your careful but direct thoughts on this spectrum of behaviors offers great insight and aligns well with my own experience. I can see the ways I’ve adopted my own narcissistic behaviors to survive, and how that learned set of behaviors has not aligned with my belief in a higher self. Mahalo!
Thank you Gregory for your comments and your self-reflections. You're right - we're complex but also quite predictable when in survival mode. I'm relieved my summary on narcissism resonated and reflects the nuances and complexity of the human condition and experiences,
Great article. Another way to deal with the sense of powerlessness, beyond getting used to it, is to focus on all of the areas in which you have power. So to go from an external locus of control to an internal locus of control, focusing in on all of the things in your life that you do have power over.
We have power to handle our responses to people. It's okay that we can't control what other people think, say, or do. We are the ones who have complete control over ourself and when we focus on that we find out how powerful we really are. I think that narcissists just don't do that, and might just be highly correlated with an external locus of control.
I'm with you on this Barbara. What you refer to as internal locus of control, I refer to as ego management. For those of us alert to these behaviours, it's easier to respond thoughtful by managing our own ego and adjusting expectations of the others' conduct. When they show you who they are - believe them!
I published a piece about ego management and might fit what you were referring to in your insightful comment. Thank you!
I'd add "lying" as an indicator, which is embedded throughout those 19 behaviors, and could be a stand-alone indicator. Some narcs lie for seemingly no reason, but they must get something out of it.
Can confirm I used to play sacred victim, and it was the result of and fed simultaneously my mental illness. I appreciate you connecting victimhood to narcissism, because the position of certain kinds of women, specifically, is predicated on playing the victim and acquiring social clout. The social clout is then used to create hierarchies among already relatively privileged PMC women and bully others from this position of ostensible disempowerment. But in reality of course, the power dynamic is flipped, and so I could never critique the behavior of these sacred victims. If I did, bullies would come. All I kept hearing is how tired they are from explaining their subjectivity to people oppressing them, not of course seeing that everyone is forced to cater to their feelings. I appreciate this greatly as it’s influenced my thinking.
Thank you Nathalie. Your excellent, well written article provided so much information to more fully understand Narcissism viewed as a whole, with its many manifests. Well done!
Late to gate on this one, good sign the algorithm is working.
Points 5, 9 and 11 in the checklist were instrumental in imploding a recent realationship. I had a narcissistic parent, being a slow learner, I only evaluated that later in life, now spend a great deal (way too much) time analysing if I have 'inherited' the trait. Scares me shitless tbh. I can take a bit of comfort in reading this content, while not faultless in the destruction of said relationship, the above points in the checklist are really big fat red flashing lights I took no notice of.
I'm super late in my response George. Thank you for your comment and your experiences of wondering about narcissistic traits in yourself. We employ these strategies from time to time when feeling in control is necessary.
Wow what a remarkable article. You are so detailed and use such great examples. My Narcissistic mother is very fond of the reprimand...I am constantly told to use a different tone and use different words. She is 83 and I am 54. So much shaming! She never seems to tire of it.
Your mum sounds like she's mastered Tone Policing as her preferred narcissistic behaviour strategy to control you and enable her comfort. How do you respond knowing that she's unlikely to change her behaviour?
Doctor I so appreciate your response. A little about me – I’m an attorney in Tennessee – I worked as a prosecutor for about 13 years. A wonderful job but the beatings and rapes and sexual abuse got to me. I developed a hideous wine addiction – I could not relax. My mother is from Mississippi – she was Miss America in 1960. She married my dad as his second wife…they were 18 years apart. He was an ENT surgeon of some notoriety. He invented a complex medical procedure. I was a total wild ass as a kid – I got caught smoking pot at 15 and shipped off to boarding school. My mother sent both of her stepchildren to boarding school and her three children with my dad as well.
We just drove to my brother’s place in Nashville for Thanksgiving. I got up at 5 am – went to 3 different supermarkets for food, packed the car, and drove. She spent the entire time berating me – and then begged for my help to download a book from Amazon. She adores my two brothers but has always sort of despised me. I live with her and look after her – my brothers do not lift a finger. It is very difficult for her to handle that she no longer gets male attention. I do – I work out constantly and look about 40. This is a big issue for her right now. She is freakishly jealous of every aspect of my life. I stay in my room and watch Law and Order on my computer. The lack of attention freaks her out. She constantly knocks on my door with some fake crisis and interrogates me about what I am watching. She is getting senile.
I got sober and am doing great. I buffer myself from her. I go to bed at 8.30pm and get up around 5am – I can have some time alone because she sleeps until 10am. I pray a lot and ask God for guidance. I know in my mind that she is very sick – raised by two cruel alcoholics. She is a compulsive liar. I have audiotapes of lengthy conversations with her that she claims never happened. Doctor – it is a day-to-day struggle. Thank you for your kind words.
Thanksgiving can be so annoying/difficult! You've described the layout of the narcissistic family system and your role is at the scapegoat/Black sheep and your brothers as the Golden Child and Ally (replacing the role of your father).
You're incredible for what you endure on a daily basis and wonder what would happen to your family's dynamics if you were able to extract yourself from the current role?
Here is a link to my piece on the narcissistic family system - it might be a further eye opener!
Good post but I also feel a bit confused. We contribute to our relationships but we also have to draw a line at some point, yes? Restoring trust after betrayal can just be re-entering an unhealthy cycle.
Yes absolutely Jake. We contribute to the relationship as does the other. If the other is acting badly and clearly not taking personal responsibility for their part in the conflict and blaming you instead, they're being accountability averse.
There's no possibility of restoring trust in that relationship if they can't meet you in the middle and it's time to consider a relationship exit or evolving it to something more transactional/superficial. I am all about assertiveness and naming the tension in the air and I'm also realistic about the future of relationships when one person can't own up to their behaviours and impact and only wants to make me wrong. My assertiveness strategy changes in response to people like that if I have to interact with them in an ongoing way (ie workplace). I don't try to 'teach' them or even expect them to see my perspective. I let them be right and limit interactions with them and I accept that I can only have a transactional relationship with them that focuses on tasks, not personal content.
I have a number of pieces on this site that speaks to managing our ego around people like that so that we aren't drained after our interactions with them. Happy reading!
Thank you! I have been looking around your stack and am finding some helpful ideas, and appreciate the links you included here. I love your clear and nuanced approach to this topic. Prior to finding your work, most of what I saw re: narcissism had me believing I was nowhere near the narcissistic spectrum. But I am and I don't want to be. (I think to be human is to some degree to be narcissistic, but my goal is to minimize that tendency as much as possible.) I think that as we become more self-aware, our unhelpful tendencies, in whatever form they take, become more subtle and harder to suss out. Diving deeper with scripts to say would be very much appreciated!
This list was an eye-opener for me. I have to say that I see some uncomfortable similarities to ways I behave in my primary relationship. Seeing the behaviors and having the self awareness of what needs to change are first steps. Making the changes is the hard part.
Thank you for saying this. I feel the same about myself and it is a constant process of self-monitoring and feedback loops without putting pressure to be perfect. Change is hard because people need to replace the behaviour with a different one, often not knowing what the different one is.
As someone who has overcome more than one big addiction in my life, I know I can change. 20+ years ago I replaced certain drug habits with better lifestyle habits that I still practice daily and my life is so much better for it. If you have any articles or other resources that can point me in the right direction to change my narcissistic tendencies, I would be grateful. I can imagine it's mostly being aware of the behaviors listed here and practicing the opposite. But if there are any other tips/suggestions I'd love to hear them. I feel especially motivated to not pass on these habits to my children, as much as I can possibly control any of that. Thank you.
It's great to read that you've worked hard to change your life and habits, and your awareness of other things you'd like to change. Not wanting our children to endure what we have in toxic relationships has been a motivation of mine to keep me examining my actions and tweaking my responses.
You're making me think about diving deeper in some of the concepts here to come up with scripts to say instead of the habitual responses to tricky people. Thank you!
Thanks Nathalie for expanding the concept of narcissism away from the simplistic version that we hear about too often. If narcissism were simple, none of us would get ensnared by it. At the same time, here, youve managed a back to basics overview which is really helpful.
I really appreciate your gracious comment Dr. Rogoff. As a non-psychologist/psychiatrist/clinician trying to help others (and myself) make sense of behaviour patterns that feature domination and aggrandisement, it means a lot to read your perspective about my work. I also really enjoy your analyses on narcissisms in famous people to help us see why these public figures 1)choose their profession and 2) they lean on specific behaviour strategies to build and preserve an illusion about themselves.
Wow. Powerful thoughts. You really know this topic. Thanks for sharing this. I’ve struggled with much of the analysis I’ve seen/read/heard around narcissism because it seemed too simplistic to actually capture what I perceive as a more complex and human condition. Your careful but direct thoughts on this spectrum of behaviors offers great insight and aligns well with my own experience. I can see the ways I’ve adopted my own narcissistic behaviors to survive, and how that learned set of behaviors has not aligned with my belief in a higher self. Mahalo!
Thank you Gregory for your comments and your self-reflections. You're right - we're complex but also quite predictable when in survival mode. I'm relieved my summary on narcissism resonated and reflects the nuances and complexity of the human condition and experiences,
Nathalie
Great article. Another way to deal with the sense of powerlessness, beyond getting used to it, is to focus on all of the areas in which you have power. So to go from an external locus of control to an internal locus of control, focusing in on all of the things in your life that you do have power over.
We have power to handle our responses to people. It's okay that we can't control what other people think, say, or do. We are the ones who have complete control over ourself and when we focus on that we find out how powerful we really are. I think that narcissists just don't do that, and might just be highly correlated with an external locus of control.
I'm with you on this Barbara. What you refer to as internal locus of control, I refer to as ego management. For those of us alert to these behaviours, it's easier to respond thoughtful by managing our own ego and adjusting expectations of the others' conduct. When they show you who they are - believe them!
I published a piece about ego management and might fit what you were referring to in your insightful comment. Thank you!
https://nathaliemartinekphd.substack.com/p/power
A helpful and clear explanation and guide.
I'd add "lying" as an indicator, which is embedded throughout those 19 behaviors, and could be a stand-alone indicator. Some narcs lie for seemingly no reason, but they must get something out of it.
Thank you for the addition M Lucky. Lying is so obvious that I missed it!
Can confirm I used to play sacred victim, and it was the result of and fed simultaneously my mental illness. I appreciate you connecting victimhood to narcissism, because the position of certain kinds of women, specifically, is predicated on playing the victim and acquiring social clout. The social clout is then used to create hierarchies among already relatively privileged PMC women and bully others from this position of ostensible disempowerment. But in reality of course, the power dynamic is flipped, and so I could never critique the behavior of these sacred victims. If I did, bullies would come. All I kept hearing is how tired they are from explaining their subjectivity to people oppressing them, not of course seeing that everyone is forced to cater to their feelings. I appreciate this greatly as it’s influenced my thinking.
Thank you for sharing your reflections about your past self Radha. The privileged among the oppressed class crying oppression is laughable.
The best article on narcissism I've ever read and i learned a lot. DARVO is a new acronym in my lexicon. Thanks!
Thanks Jon for your enthusiastic comment! Feel free to spread it around to anyone who could benefit from this content!
Thank you Nathalie. Your excellent, well written article provided so much information to more fully understand Narcissism viewed as a whole, with its many manifests. Well done!
Thank you so much True North! I'm so glad it resonated!
Late to gate on this one, good sign the algorithm is working.
Points 5, 9 and 11 in the checklist were instrumental in imploding a recent realationship. I had a narcissistic parent, being a slow learner, I only evaluated that later in life, now spend a great deal (way too much) time analysing if I have 'inherited' the trait. Scares me shitless tbh. I can take a bit of comfort in reading this content, while not faultless in the destruction of said relationship, the above points in the checklist are really big fat red flashing lights I took no notice of.
Thanks again for your content.
I'm super late in my response George. Thank you for your comment and your experiences of wondering about narcissistic traits in yourself. We employ these strategies from time to time when feeling in control is necessary.
Wow what a remarkable article. You are so detailed and use such great examples. My Narcissistic mother is very fond of the reprimand...I am constantly told to use a different tone and use different words. She is 83 and I am 54. So much shaming! She never seems to tire of it.
Thank you so much Sue for your comment!
Your mum sounds like she's mastered Tone Policing as her preferred narcissistic behaviour strategy to control you and enable her comfort. How do you respond knowing that she's unlikely to change her behaviour?
Nathalie
Doctor I so appreciate your response. A little about me – I’m an attorney in Tennessee – I worked as a prosecutor for about 13 years. A wonderful job but the beatings and rapes and sexual abuse got to me. I developed a hideous wine addiction – I could not relax. My mother is from Mississippi – she was Miss America in 1960. She married my dad as his second wife…they were 18 years apart. He was an ENT surgeon of some notoriety. He invented a complex medical procedure. I was a total wild ass as a kid – I got caught smoking pot at 15 and shipped off to boarding school. My mother sent both of her stepchildren to boarding school and her three children with my dad as well.
We just drove to my brother’s place in Nashville for Thanksgiving. I got up at 5 am – went to 3 different supermarkets for food, packed the car, and drove. She spent the entire time berating me – and then begged for my help to download a book from Amazon. She adores my two brothers but has always sort of despised me. I live with her and look after her – my brothers do not lift a finger. It is very difficult for her to handle that she no longer gets male attention. I do – I work out constantly and look about 40. This is a big issue for her right now. She is freakishly jealous of every aspect of my life. I stay in my room and watch Law and Order on my computer. The lack of attention freaks her out. She constantly knocks on my door with some fake crisis and interrogates me about what I am watching. She is getting senile.
I got sober and am doing great. I buffer myself from her. I go to bed at 8.30pm and get up around 5am – I can have some time alone because she sleeps until 10am. I pray a lot and ask God for guidance. I know in my mind that she is very sick – raised by two cruel alcoholics. She is a compulsive liar. I have audiotapes of lengthy conversations with her that she claims never happened. Doctor – it is a day-to-day struggle. Thank you for your kind words.
Thanksgiving can be so annoying/difficult! You've described the layout of the narcissistic family system and your role is at the scapegoat/Black sheep and your brothers as the Golden Child and Ally (replacing the role of your father).
You're incredible for what you endure on a daily basis and wonder what would happen to your family's dynamics if you were able to extract yourself from the current role?
Here is a link to my piece on the narcissistic family system - it might be a further eye opener!
https://nathaliemartinekphd.substack.com/p/dfs#details
Thank you again for telling your story including how you manage to look after yourself in the face of such struggles Sue,
Nathalie
Good post but I also feel a bit confused. We contribute to our relationships but we also have to draw a line at some point, yes? Restoring trust after betrayal can just be re-entering an unhealthy cycle.
Yes absolutely Jake. We contribute to the relationship as does the other. If the other is acting badly and clearly not taking personal responsibility for their part in the conflict and blaming you instead, they're being accountability averse.
I unpacked accountability averse people here: https://nathaliemartinekphd.substack.com/p/accountability
There's no possibility of restoring trust in that relationship if they can't meet you in the middle and it's time to consider a relationship exit or evolving it to something more transactional/superficial. I am all about assertiveness and naming the tension in the air and I'm also realistic about the future of relationships when one person can't own up to their behaviours and impact and only wants to make me wrong. My assertiveness strategy changes in response to people like that if I have to interact with them in an ongoing way (ie workplace). I don't try to 'teach' them or even expect them to see my perspective. I let them be right and limit interactions with them and I accept that I can only have a transactional relationship with them that focuses on tasks, not personal content.
I have a number of pieces on this site that speaks to managing our ego around people like that so that we aren't drained after our interactions with them. Happy reading!
Thanks for your question Jake,
Nathalie
Thank you! I have been looking around your stack and am finding some helpful ideas, and appreciate the links you included here. I love your clear and nuanced approach to this topic. Prior to finding your work, most of what I saw re: narcissism had me believing I was nowhere near the narcissistic spectrum. But I am and I don't want to be. (I think to be human is to some degree to be narcissistic, but my goal is to minimize that tendency as much as possible.) I think that as we become more self-aware, our unhelpful tendencies, in whatever form they take, become more subtle and harder to suss out. Diving deeper with scripts to say would be very much appreciated!
Thanks!
This list was an eye-opener for me. I have to say that I see some uncomfortable similarities to ways I behave in my primary relationship. Seeing the behaviors and having the self awareness of what needs to change are first steps. Making the changes is the hard part.
Thank you for saying this. I feel the same about myself and it is a constant process of self-monitoring and feedback loops without putting pressure to be perfect. Change is hard because people need to replace the behaviour with a different one, often not knowing what the different one is.
As someone who has overcome more than one big addiction in my life, I know I can change. 20+ years ago I replaced certain drug habits with better lifestyle habits that I still practice daily and my life is so much better for it. If you have any articles or other resources that can point me in the right direction to change my narcissistic tendencies, I would be grateful. I can imagine it's mostly being aware of the behaviors listed here and practicing the opposite. But if there are any other tips/suggestions I'd love to hear them. I feel especially motivated to not pass on these habits to my children, as much as I can possibly control any of that. Thank you.
It's great to read that you've worked hard to change your life and habits, and your awareness of other things you'd like to change. Not wanting our children to endure what we have in toxic relationships has been a motivation of mine to keep me examining my actions and tweaking my responses.
I have two pieces to get you started: https://www.hackingnarcissism.com/p/power
https://www.hackingnarcissism.com/p/narcburden
You're making me think about diving deeper in some of the concepts here to come up with scripts to say instead of the habitual responses to tricky people. Thank you!
Thanks Nathalie for expanding the concept of narcissism away from the simplistic version that we hear about too often. If narcissism were simple, none of us would get ensnared by it. At the same time, here, youve managed a back to basics overview which is really helpful.
I really appreciate your gracious comment Dr. Rogoff. As a non-psychologist/psychiatrist/clinician trying to help others (and myself) make sense of behaviour patterns that feature domination and aggrandisement, it means a lot to read your perspective about my work. I also really enjoy your analyses on narcissisms in famous people to help us see why these public figures 1)choose their profession and 2) they lean on specific behaviour strategies to build and preserve an illusion about themselves.
Absolutely fascinating.
This is amazing!!! Thank you SO MUCH Dr. Martinek!!!
Thank you Kimberley Anne!
Lying should definitely be on that list. Thank you for raising it @M Lucky!