Grateful you did this-almost no one recognizes what this interaction really is, let alone has the knowledge to illustrate in steps what's really going on for bewildered normal people. Thank you.
Thank you Josh! I never know how these will be received but people tend to enjoy learning about interesting archetypes. Some people are hell bent on seeing the good in others, giving the benefit of the doubt, assuming good faith, and reading text as truth of someone's intent. You and I both know this is naive and end up contacting us for support with their own narcissist-related problems.
That response pattern is so common in internet discourse -- and has been since Usenet -- that it looks normal anymore.
I've learned to walk away from it. I just don't have the energy to effectively parry (assuming it can be done), and nothing's lost by leaving them hanging.
Someone is wrong on the internet? I just don't care anymore.
I'm working towards that - I guess some part of me wants/needs to correct an obvious wrongness (usually on Medscape) or a subreddit or here - but it gets me nowhere or maybe in a worse spot emotionally, resulting from my obsessive need to read/analyze. The opposite reaction would be to accept/let go, which is the better way to go spiritually. And, there are many people who are "wrong" and are manifesting their personality issues online, ie getting gratification from triggering negative energy.
Good stuff. Having been a woman with male-typical interests on social media for awhile (I had 17,000ish followers on Twitter when I left a few years ago, in an era when that was a LOT for a personal account) I have been through every conceivable method of dealing with this stuff. I've finally settled on defaulting to "probably bad faith" for everyone who isn't a paid subscribers. I don't like this, and I try to be quick to apologize when I get it wrong, but that heuristic is like 80% accurate according to what I can tell. Which is sad.
I have witnessed some of those domination attempts on you and your assertive smack downs. It is sad that we have to stop and wonder if people are bad faith actors rather than having the benefit of assuming everyone is playing nice. I'm reading some of the comments here with the same suspicions.
“You’re a narcissist”** is what the gentleman intended to write. I’m usually not a stickler for grammar, but with those that launch ridiculous attacks…I’m all for it.
He's already having a bad day exposing himself the way he has. He could have planted those mistakes as lures to bait my grammar police (product of the Canadian education system in the 80s). I wasn't going to go there.
Thank you for your work. I tell the kids and I even tell myself that sometimes it’s just typed words and you can’t take them personally. But when those words are directed at us personally, it’s not so easy. Our competitive side takes over. Then we waste our time when we could’ve been doing something that matters. And after that, we waste even more time justifying why we reacted because we feel embarrassed for having stepped in it. Thank you for articulating shared experiences that I forget we’ve all had in common.
Thank you Shawn! Lessons for kids on engaging in battles via text is so important. Mine have learned not to put anything in writing that could be twisted by fake friends, and to speak over the phone instead (better for social skill development anyway).
I have cringed for falling for these tactics in the past and wasted my time and emotional energy. Never again.
I tell them to always write like you’re expecting it to be reposted by someone who doesn’t like you at some point in the future. Thank God they do a better job than I! 🤣
How I handle "Cluster B" behaviors can be summed up in three simple words:
Go
To
Hell
I put everything I write online under my name, or under my Substack's title, which easily comes back to me. If I say something, I'm required to stand by it.
Which means if people don't like what I say, that's their issue. I'll happily engage in reasoned debate, but if I get emotional incontinence in response, I make good use of the "Delete" and "Block" functions.
Believing as Oscar Wilde did, that a gentleman is never unintentionally rude, I like to think my commentary is mostly civil. Accordingly, I take no responsibility for the emotional reactions of others.
Respect means you get courtesy and civility -- right up to the point where you respond with rudeness and ridiculous word salad.
I like your summary Peter. We have a respect deficiency in these Substack halls (and other platforms). I look forward to seeing a 'go to hell' in response to a troll next time I'm scrolling through my feed.
This post is chef’s kiss—a masterclass in decoding online dominance games. You’ve nailed the anatomy of bad-faith engagement, and I love how you expose the predictable script these pseudo-intellectuals follow. It’s like they all took the same “How to Argue Like a Contrarian Genius” course on YouTube and never graduated.
The whole intellectual authority test move? Classic. They don’t actually want an answer; they want to corner you into a debate ring where they’ve already crowned themselves the winner. And the shifting burden of proof tactic? That’s their way of making you dance while they stand smugly on the sidelines, offering nothing of substance.
But my favorite part? The escalation. The moment you don’t engage on their terms, they swap persuasion for personal attacks. The PhD mockery is especially telling—nothing screams “I desperately crave validation” like someone pretending credentials don’t matter… while being obsessed with proving their own superiority.
What’s wild is that they actually believe they’re rational truth-tellers while being completely ruled by their emotions. That “laughing emoji” maneuver? It’s textbook emotional manipulation—a flimsy attempt to belittle you while they’re clearly fuming. It’s giving “I’m not mad, you’re mad” energy.
Your advice is gold: don’t feed the beast. These people thrive on attention. They aren’t looking for a real exchange, just a battle where they can flex their fragile ego. Silence, mockery, or a well-placed “I’ll leave you to your projections” shuts the whole thing down.
Thank you Fahim! This is a great compliment indeed along with your additional analysis. When you can see it, you can see it. These peeps are inspiration for many pieces to come and it's fascinating when others go to defend this behaviour because they can't yet see (what they already do).
I think most of the people we are talking about are "unconscious" ie there are personality-characterological issues going on, and they won't have the degree of openness to receive information. The thing is, the percentage of people in the population like this has increased or been enabled in the last 10 years (contributing factors go back further) and they now populate our executive government.
This is exactly the problem. People like this in positions of power with a great deal of influence and responsibility without the maturity and morality to handle it
This is so brilliant. We have a new archetype and a great checklist to refer to when we are being trolled online, thank you Nathalie!
The online troll is a particular breed because they hide behind their anonymity (even if not anon accounts). The layers of separation in the online sphere make it easier for them to engage like narcissists/sociopaths. Perhaps it brings out a latent darkness? (Or emboldens a not-so-latent darkness!)
I would love to see a print magazine of all your top articles. I would love to have this in a coffee table edition I could pick up when needed :).
Thank you so much Kate! I have a few more archetypes coming out :) Life is full of such inspiration!
I think living behind a screen gives people false courage to say what they really think and feel because there's nothing to lose. This can entice our darker behaviour to come out and play.
Great info. I am learning not to join the debate or provide indepth explanations (or any explanations). Therein lies the grand trap. Fruitless and almost impossible to win or get out of again. For which they thrive. They are masters of manipulation, twisting words, and playing dumb. Gracefully, give only inarguable facts, if necessary, or silence. Starve them, as you said. Thank you for this article.
Thank you Dove! It can be hard to not take the bait especially when it's on a topic you know enough about for a good debate. But these people only want your energy. If everyone starves them, they eventually leave. I dream of a troll-less online world.
Wow, that part about starving their need for attention hit hard. We call it “going full gray rock”, because sometimes our silence is the only boundary they’ll halfway respect. The worst part is that they never want a conversation, they want a performance, while they sit front row judging our every word. We’re not debating a person, we’re feeding a void. This is such a good reminder. It’s never about winning. It’s about not handing them the script!
Most definitely! That is pure gold, Nathalie. The transition to become a gray rock is really harder than it may seem to implement, but I'm convinced that it's the right approach. I'm living this process in real time as I speak, and guess what, sometimes I get myself missing the narcissist I'm trying to grayrock (which seems to be typical on abuser-abused relations as the abused ones seems to develop a sense of guilt).
"every once in a while, I post something subtly provocative"
"when in reality it’s just a sentence they interpreted uncharitably"
Some enjoy this process to achieve a dominative stance over people who become "too stupid as they did not get it"
What you describe in your article becomes possible in the opposite way, and I suppose that the concept of "service to self" may be of help to identify & set the red line
So, I will say it’s very difficult to absorb that knee jerk reaction and not let the anger get away from you. I do engage to an extent, but it takes a lot of energy, practice, and patience.
When I do, however, I’ve found the most effective way to shut it down is through kindness. I know that sounds cheesy but it really does work, at least in my experience. I try and keep in mind that all this anger they’re throwing at me is coming from the hurt they feel. Just like the narcissism, anger is a shield to protect them, like you said, from being hurt further. They’ve been jaded (usually by someone they really care about) and they’re still grieving that betrayal of trust.
Depending on how deep that insecurity goes, to get them to trust you and stop the behavior may take a long time (hence the patience part) so I admit this type of engagement is not for everyone.
Because of that, though, I refuse to block anyone simply because of that. Call me a bleeding heart, but to me it feels like that would just reinforce their self-loathing and hurt them further.
I actually wrote a few essays myself on this subject (to varying degrees) some time ago. Grief is something I encounter often in my line of work so it’s something I’ve gotten used to dealing with.
What's interesting about this interaction to me is that a man is using the the phrase 'toxic feminism' to a highly educated and qualified woman as part of an interaction that did not reference sex/gender/patriarchy/feminism in any way. I'd like to bet that you being PhD is at the root of his rage. The misogyny is leaking out
You would be surprised at how many men specifically name the PhD as an issue and mock me for it. It could be misogyny or their inadequacy surfacing. Some of these dudes do it to men too.
Part of the reason why the 2016 and 2024 elections went the way they did. Deep-seated fear expressed as prejudice, intolerance, anger, violence - pretty bad.
I had trolls bait me in messages several times, they reverted to ad hominem attacks pretty quickly which spoke volumes to me about "this person" (assuming it was an actual person and not-a-bot). My first thought was "what NGO is paying you to try and piss off conservatives on substack?" then I realized (and have the brilliant meme on my desktop): "Notice how bees don't waste their time explaining to flies that flowers taste better than sh*t". That is my most useful meme.
You've just described communications I've had with someone I love very much, but have greatly reduced communication with, because this sort of thing happened SO often. I finally said "No more".
Wise move Jaye. Now you can recharge and keep those boundaries firm. Be alert to when they change their tune and attempt to hoover/suck you back in. They will seem reasonable for a bit until you're successfully locked back into the drama. People do not change quickly even if they say they have.
Grateful you did this-almost no one recognizes what this interaction really is, let alone has the knowledge to illustrate in steps what's really going on for bewildered normal people. Thank you.
Thank you Josh! I never know how these will be received but people tend to enjoy learning about interesting archetypes. Some people are hell bent on seeing the good in others, giving the benefit of the doubt, assuming good faith, and reading text as truth of someone's intent. You and I both know this is naive and end up contacting us for support with their own narcissist-related problems.
Some of the comments here are...interesting.
I'm one of those niave ones who wants to believe everyone is good and well intentioned, empathic, etc. What a mistake to think that!
That response pattern is so common in internet discourse -- and has been since Usenet -- that it looks normal anymore.
I've learned to walk away from it. I just don't have the energy to effectively parry (assuming it can be done), and nothing's lost by leaving them hanging.
Someone is wrong on the internet? I just don't care anymore.
Not wasting your energy is wise. I tend to take this approach except when I'm in a more playful mood.
I'm working towards that - I guess some part of me wants/needs to correct an obvious wrongness (usually on Medscape) or a subreddit or here - but it gets me nowhere or maybe in a worse spot emotionally, resulting from my obsessive need to read/analyze. The opposite reaction would be to accept/let go, which is the better way to go spiritually. And, there are many people who are "wrong" and are manifesting their personality issues online, ie getting gratification from triggering negative energy.
Good stuff. Having been a woman with male-typical interests on social media for awhile (I had 17,000ish followers on Twitter when I left a few years ago, in an era when that was a LOT for a personal account) I have been through every conceivable method of dealing with this stuff. I've finally settled on defaulting to "probably bad faith" for everyone who isn't a paid subscribers. I don't like this, and I try to be quick to apologize when I get it wrong, but that heuristic is like 80% accurate according to what I can tell. Which is sad.
I have witnessed some of those domination attempts on you and your assertive smack downs. It is sad that we have to stop and wonder if people are bad faith actors rather than having the benefit of assuming everyone is playing nice. I'm reading some of the comments here with the same suspicions.
“You’re a narcissist”** is what the gentleman intended to write. I’m usually not a stickler for grammar, but with those that launch ridiculous attacks…I’m all for it.
Bad grammar dampens the blow. Badly written insults hurts the insulter more than the insulted.
i noticed that, too… the improper use of “your,” and “someone” as two words.
card-carrying member of the grammar police over here 🙋🏼♀️ i wouldn’t have been able to resist calling him out!
He's already having a bad day exposing himself the way he has. He could have planted those mistakes as lures to bait my grammar police (product of the Canadian education system in the 80s). I wasn't going to go there.
i am learning to disengage... thanks for guiding the way!
Thank you for your work. I tell the kids and I even tell myself that sometimes it’s just typed words and you can’t take them personally. But when those words are directed at us personally, it’s not so easy. Our competitive side takes over. Then we waste our time when we could’ve been doing something that matters. And after that, we waste even more time justifying why we reacted because we feel embarrassed for having stepped in it. Thank you for articulating shared experiences that I forget we’ve all had in common.
Thank you Shawn! Lessons for kids on engaging in battles via text is so important. Mine have learned not to put anything in writing that could be twisted by fake friends, and to speak over the phone instead (better for social skill development anyway).
I have cringed for falling for these tactics in the past and wasted my time and emotional energy. Never again.
I tell them to always write like you’re expecting it to be reposted by someone who doesn’t like you at some point in the future. Thank God they do a better job than I! 🤣
"Our competitive side takes over. Then we waste our time when we could’ve been doing something that matters." Well said.
Thank you!
How I handle "Cluster B" behaviors can be summed up in three simple words:
Go
To
Hell
I put everything I write online under my name, or under my Substack's title, which easily comes back to me. If I say something, I'm required to stand by it.
Which means if people don't like what I say, that's their issue. I'll happily engage in reasoned debate, but if I get emotional incontinence in response, I make good use of the "Delete" and "Block" functions.
Believing as Oscar Wilde did, that a gentleman is never unintentionally rude, I like to think my commentary is mostly civil. Accordingly, I take no responsibility for the emotional reactions of others.
Respect means you get courtesy and civility -- right up to the point where you respond with rudeness and ridiculous word salad.
I like your summary Peter. We have a respect deficiency in these Substack halls (and other platforms). I look forward to seeing a 'go to hell' in response to a troll next time I'm scrolling through my feed.
Substack hygiene is a great term and practice. Thanks for making it happen @Mancuso!
This post is chef’s kiss—a masterclass in decoding online dominance games. You’ve nailed the anatomy of bad-faith engagement, and I love how you expose the predictable script these pseudo-intellectuals follow. It’s like they all took the same “How to Argue Like a Contrarian Genius” course on YouTube and never graduated.
The whole intellectual authority test move? Classic. They don’t actually want an answer; they want to corner you into a debate ring where they’ve already crowned themselves the winner. And the shifting burden of proof tactic? That’s their way of making you dance while they stand smugly on the sidelines, offering nothing of substance.
But my favorite part? The escalation. The moment you don’t engage on their terms, they swap persuasion for personal attacks. The PhD mockery is especially telling—nothing screams “I desperately crave validation” like someone pretending credentials don’t matter… while being obsessed with proving their own superiority.
What’s wild is that they actually believe they’re rational truth-tellers while being completely ruled by their emotions. That “laughing emoji” maneuver? It’s textbook emotional manipulation—a flimsy attempt to belittle you while they’re clearly fuming. It’s giving “I’m not mad, you’re mad” energy.
Your advice is gold: don’t feed the beast. These people thrive on attention. They aren’t looking for a real exchange, just a battle where they can flex their fragile ego. Silence, mockery, or a well-placed “I’ll leave you to your projections” shuts the whole thing down.
Thank you Fahim! This is a great compliment indeed along with your additional analysis. When you can see it, you can see it. These peeps are inspiration for many pieces to come and it's fascinating when others go to defend this behaviour because they can't yet see (what they already do).
I think most of the people we are talking about are "unconscious" ie there are personality-characterological issues going on, and they won't have the degree of openness to receive information. The thing is, the percentage of people in the population like this has increased or been enabled in the last 10 years (contributing factors go back further) and they now populate our executive government.
This is exactly the problem. People like this in positions of power with a great deal of influence and responsibility without the maturity and morality to handle it
This is so brilliant. We have a new archetype and a great checklist to refer to when we are being trolled online, thank you Nathalie!
The online troll is a particular breed because they hide behind their anonymity (even if not anon accounts). The layers of separation in the online sphere make it easier for them to engage like narcissists/sociopaths. Perhaps it brings out a latent darkness? (Or emboldens a not-so-latent darkness!)
I would love to see a print magazine of all your top articles. I would love to have this in a coffee table edition I could pick up when needed :).
Thank you so much Kate! I have a few more archetypes coming out :) Life is full of such inspiration!
I think living behind a screen gives people false courage to say what they really think and feel because there's nothing to lose. This can entice our darker behaviour to come out and play.
A coffee table book? I like your thinking.
Great info. I am learning not to join the debate or provide indepth explanations (or any explanations). Therein lies the grand trap. Fruitless and almost impossible to win or get out of again. For which they thrive. They are masters of manipulation, twisting words, and playing dumb. Gracefully, give only inarguable facts, if necessary, or silence. Starve them, as you said. Thank you for this article.
Thank you Dove! It can be hard to not take the bait especially when it's on a topic you know enough about for a good debate. But these people only want your energy. If everyone starves them, they eventually leave. I dream of a troll-less online world.
Some people are just emotinally unhinged.
Why rage?
A textbook gamma response, as I've learned from Vox Day.
Wow, that part about starving their need for attention hit hard. We call it “going full gray rock”, because sometimes our silence is the only boundary they’ll halfway respect. The worst part is that they never want a conversation, they want a performance, while they sit front row judging our every word. We’re not debating a person, we’re feeding a void. This is such a good reminder. It’s never about winning. It’s about not handing them the script!
Yes to gray rocking. I wrote all about it here: https://www.hackingnarcissism.com/p/ggg
It does require strong ego management and covert boundary enforcement to walk away without them noticing.
Most definitely! That is pure gold, Nathalie. The transition to become a gray rock is really harder than it may seem to implement, but I'm convinced that it's the right approach. I'm living this process in real time as I speak, and guess what, sometimes I get myself missing the narcissist I'm trying to grayrock (which seems to be typical on abuser-abused relations as the abused ones seems to develop a sense of guilt).
People have to override their guilt reflex from no longer serving the narcissistic person. Hard but doable!
Thanks Jamie for your enthusiasm. Love that you're focusing on exposing all things covert narcissism. There's so much needed to open people's eyes!
for the record, evil can be narrowed down to psychopathology without loosing the generic scope that the word evil provides
"psychopathology" has that ability to remain generical and at the same time inherently qualifies things precisely
"every once in a while, I post something subtly provocative"
"when in reality it’s just a sentence they interpreted uncharitably"
Some enjoy this process to achieve a dominative stance over people who become "too stupid as they did not get it"
What you describe in your article becomes possible in the opposite way, and I suppose that the concept of "service to self" may be of help to identify & set the red line
Great points made here. Very well thought out.
So, I will say it’s very difficult to absorb that knee jerk reaction and not let the anger get away from you. I do engage to an extent, but it takes a lot of energy, practice, and patience.
When I do, however, I’ve found the most effective way to shut it down is through kindness. I know that sounds cheesy but it really does work, at least in my experience. I try and keep in mind that all this anger they’re throwing at me is coming from the hurt they feel. Just like the narcissism, anger is a shield to protect them, like you said, from being hurt further. They’ve been jaded (usually by someone they really care about) and they’re still grieving that betrayal of trust.
Depending on how deep that insecurity goes, to get them to trust you and stop the behavior may take a long time (hence the patience part) so I admit this type of engagement is not for everyone.
Because of that, though, I refuse to block anyone simply because of that. Call me a bleeding heart, but to me it feels like that would just reinforce their self-loathing and hurt them further.
I actually wrote a few essays myself on this subject (to varying degrees) some time ago. Grief is something I encounter often in my line of work so it’s something I’ve gotten used to dealing with.
What's interesting about this interaction to me is that a man is using the the phrase 'toxic feminism' to a highly educated and qualified woman as part of an interaction that did not reference sex/gender/patriarchy/feminism in any way. I'd like to bet that you being PhD is at the root of his rage. The misogyny is leaking out
You would be surprised at how many men specifically name the PhD as an issue and mock me for it. It could be misogyny or their inadequacy surfacing. Some of these dudes do it to men too.
I've seen/heard many MDs try to put down or de-status-ize the merit of a PhD - ridiculous. (I'm an MD who's been in many different worlds).
I agree that it’s ridiculous. I’ve seen these wars play out on Twitter several times since 2016.
I've never had an insult to my intelligence by a man that ended up not being rooted in mysogyny but I'll take your word for it 🤷🏼♀️
Just by way of explanation, I'm that type of Autistic that is 'cute' but also Profoundly Gifted (Maths/Astrophysics).
Part of the reason why the 2016 and 2024 elections went the way they did. Deep-seated fear expressed as prejudice, intolerance, anger, violence - pretty bad.
I had trolls bait me in messages several times, they reverted to ad hominem attacks pretty quickly which spoke volumes to me about "this person" (assuming it was an actual person and not-a-bot). My first thought was "what NGO is paying you to try and piss off conservatives on substack?" then I realized (and have the brilliant meme on my desktop): "Notice how bees don't waste their time explaining to flies that flowers taste better than sh*t". That is my most useful meme.
Bees are wise - it’s a useful quote! Let’s honour our precious time and use our energy to talk to people worthy of it.
You've just described communications I've had with someone I love very much, but have greatly reduced communication with, because this sort of thing happened SO often. I finally said "No more".
Wise move Jaye. Now you can recharge and keep those boundaries firm. Be alert to when they change their tune and attempt to hoover/suck you back in. They will seem reasonable for a bit until you're successfully locked back into the drama. People do not change quickly even if they say they have.