Understanding the concept of "The Victim as Persecutor" has had a profoundly eye-opening impact on the last 10 years or so of my life. I guess I understood this concept on some surface level, but only recently did I sort of accept it as the truth.
It makes interacting with others a LOT less disappointing and irritating. Slowly but surely, I'm learning to give others the benefit of the doubt, to understand that they are victims.
This: “For the rest, acknowledging your victimhood, without dwelling in it, seeking to be special as a result of it, or bypassing it can help us develop a better relationship with shame, acceptance of the victim within yourself and for sustaining a healthy ego.” Thank you! I love your writing. Upgrading.
Savior as victim I could see temptation of in a situation in which I was deeply betrayed. But I did not see myself as having any part in the betrayal whatsoever nor any higher purpose in it. I chose to stay in the relationship in order not to further victimize myself and an epiphany that staying and leaving are the same thing (a third thing must happen) The betrayer victimizer has changed and acknowledged and taken full accountability. I resist credit for that. I too have changed. I did not accept a bullshit narrative of codependency blah blah for example. Nope. I had nothing to do with it. I was betrayed. Period.
I have gradually realized that a relative's interactions with me and others involves her rudely and insensitively stating her position or asking a nosey question, often with a fake and inflated reference to some bogus/propped up authority to justify/validate her assertions. My response, should it be anything but enthusiastic agreement, is recieved as an assault and she immediately grabs for a perceived slight or offense, thereby assuming a victim status. I informed her that this is both infantile and actually quite offensive in that it automatically makes me a victimizer who is guilty of some grievous assault or offense. And the she wonders why she has so many unsatisfying interactions with so many people! When called on it she retreats into "I'm trying to move forwards, why are you going backwards " and saying "we can all improve," while she routine places all blame outside of herself in her immediate actions and responses. She has some awareness of her approach but seems powerless to change.
I will call her out on it again and again, but I will continue to work with her as I think she has never been able to exercise control over her side of interpersonal dynamics. Her behaviors are highly stereotyped, like broken record, and maladaptive, but she is a hard worker and tries to consistently contribute.
If I and others don't go nuts first! t's not my patience I am most worried about.
The real danger seems to be when there is a perfect storm of nuts and ability and efficiency and power and evil. I guess this dangerous person is the honed and refined narcissist and its variants that you are wanting everyone to recognize, understand, and prepare for. Our culture seems to be breeding and elevating rather than restraining these types.
I hate to say it, but perhaps culturally emasculating men is not such a good idea at scale, as part of a man's evolved role has been to counter the dangers posed by that very thing.
She sounds like the painful relative everyone tries to avoid or just nods in silent agreement just to get out of there as soon as possible. It’s great you can see the play and sad that she’s unaware that she’s a major contributor of her relationship malaise. She sounds like familiar characters I encountered - they are always right and morally superior while behaving the way they do.
This makes sense to me. I didn't go into what the victim can do to overcome the feeling of helplessness because I wanted to stay focused on the experience of victimhood. What comes next can be a variety of responses, one being the one you described. My take on getting in people's face is that I do it not to intimidate them back but to send the message 'you can't fuck with me the way you just tried'. This brings me back to 6th grade and beating up one of the bully's flying monkeys leading the charge on humiliating me to the rest of the class. She stopped and so did the bully after that.
Higher purpose is always good. But it can allow complete bypass of processing victimhood also and while much good may be accomplished in a professional setting, an empty personal life is quickly over and you find it never belonged to you. Some victims give up a self. And some victims as persecutors will gladly claim lives and never register a problem. It’s truly twisted. It’s fascinating how trauma can fracture the ability to form a complete thought around these topics or express it. And fascinating how bullies train this response. This type of writing helps. Thank you so much.
Thank you for your analysis Lee. The scenario you describe is so common in healthcare and is the reason why so many victims burn out. Saving a system that doesn't care about you is being victimized twice. In cults, devotees attach their own mission to that of the leader, losing themselves to the narcissistic leader.
I think we're using slightly different definitions of victimhood Tim. However, I'm enjoying your comments. I'm more of the ex-victim who can't be bothered to waste my energy drawing a sword on the asshole. They're more likely to fall on their own sword at some point or be wounded by someone else.
I’m learning a lot from your writing. I see something valuable everyday. Thanks for doing what you do.
Thank you for saying this Pallavi! This means a lot!
Understanding the concept of "The Victim as Persecutor" has had a profoundly eye-opening impact on the last 10 years or so of my life. I guess I understood this concept on some surface level, but only recently did I sort of accept it as the truth.
It makes interacting with others a LOT less disappointing and irritating. Slowly but surely, I'm learning to give others the benefit of the doubt, to understand that they are victims.
This: “For the rest, acknowledging your victimhood, without dwelling in it, seeking to be special as a result of it, or bypassing it can help us develop a better relationship with shame, acceptance of the victim within yourself and for sustaining a healthy ego.” Thank you! I love your writing. Upgrading.
Thank you @Kelly Thompson for your enthusiasm!!!
Savior as victim I could see temptation of in a situation in which I was deeply betrayed. But I did not see myself as having any part in the betrayal whatsoever nor any higher purpose in it. I chose to stay in the relationship in order not to further victimize myself and an epiphany that staying and leaving are the same thing (a third thing must happen) The betrayer victimizer has changed and acknowledged and taken full accountability. I resist credit for that. I too have changed. I did not accept a bullshit narrative of codependency blah blah for example. Nope. I had nothing to do with it. I was betrayed. Period.
Victim as persecutor in rel with a daughter. I was able to stop this in fam of origin (mostly) but am vulnerable to this dynamic as a mother.
Saved this one for future reference. Thank you.
I have gradually realized that a relative's interactions with me and others involves her rudely and insensitively stating her position or asking a nosey question, often with a fake and inflated reference to some bogus/propped up authority to justify/validate her assertions. My response, should it be anything but enthusiastic agreement, is recieved as an assault and she immediately grabs for a perceived slight or offense, thereby assuming a victim status. I informed her that this is both infantile and actually quite offensive in that it automatically makes me a victimizer who is guilty of some grievous assault or offense. And the she wonders why she has so many unsatisfying interactions with so many people! When called on it she retreats into "I'm trying to move forwards, why are you going backwards " and saying "we can all improve," while she routine places all blame outside of herself in her immediate actions and responses. She has some awareness of her approach but seems powerless to change.
I will call her out on it again and again, but I will continue to work with her as I think she has never been able to exercise control over her side of interpersonal dynamics. Her behaviors are highly stereotyped, like broken record, and maladaptive, but she is a hard worker and tries to consistently contribute.
You’re a patient and compassionate man Steve. I hope your efforts pay off!
If I and others don't go nuts first! t's not my patience I am most worried about.
The real danger seems to be when there is a perfect storm of nuts and ability and efficiency and power and evil. I guess this dangerous person is the honed and refined narcissist and its variants that you are wanting everyone to recognize, understand, and prepare for. Our culture seems to be breeding and elevating rather than restraining these types.
I hate to say it, but perhaps culturally emasculating men is not such a good idea at scale, as part of a man's evolved role has been to counter the dangers posed by that very thing.
She sounds like the painful relative everyone tries to avoid or just nods in silent agreement just to get out of there as soon as possible. It’s great you can see the play and sad that she’s unaware that she’s a major contributor of her relationship malaise. She sounds like familiar characters I encountered - they are always right and morally superior while behaving the way they do.
How will you deal with her next time around?
Wait... what is this deck?! --- “privilege-oppression-exclusion deck”
It's my made up deck though I found some good card examples in the Yugioh deck!
Cool!
Can you be the victim as the counter-puncher?
There are times where if I felt like a victim, I would go after that person and get up in their face.
It gets tougher as we get older and bullies learn how to exploit the system.
But there’s nothing worse than feeling helpless.
Does that make sense?
This makes sense to me. I didn't go into what the victim can do to overcome the feeling of helplessness because I wanted to stay focused on the experience of victimhood. What comes next can be a variety of responses, one being the one you described. My take on getting in people's face is that I do it not to intimidate them back but to send the message 'you can't fuck with me the way you just tried'. This brings me back to 6th grade and beating up one of the bully's flying monkeys leading the charge on humiliating me to the rest of the class. She stopped and so did the bully after that.
tl;dr - I'm all for getting up in people's faces
We don't get to choose whether or not we get hurt. Something out in the world, if not someone, is going to hurt us. Several somethings. Several times.
Hurt happens.
Some hurts leave scars. Some hurts leave psychological scars. Some hurts leave physical scars. A great many leave both.
You're going to get hurt in this world. You're going to get scarred by this world. That's going to happen.
Your challenge is choosing how to respond to getting hurt. And make no mistake--it is a choice.
If at first you can’t succeed, cry, cry again…
This is so very good.
Thank you Reggie!
Higher purpose is always good. But it can allow complete bypass of processing victimhood also and while much good may be accomplished in a professional setting, an empty personal life is quickly over and you find it never belonged to you. Some victims give up a self. And some victims as persecutors will gladly claim lives and never register a problem. It’s truly twisted. It’s fascinating how trauma can fracture the ability to form a complete thought around these topics or express it. And fascinating how bullies train this response. This type of writing helps. Thank you so much.
Thank you for your analysis Lee. The scenario you describe is so common in healthcare and is the reason why so many victims burn out. Saving a system that doesn't care about you is being victimized twice. In cults, devotees attach their own mission to that of the leader, losing themselves to the narcissistic leader.
I'm glad this piece was useful!
I think we're using slightly different definitions of victimhood Tim. However, I'm enjoying your comments. I'm more of the ex-victim who can't be bothered to waste my energy drawing a sword on the asshole. They're more likely to fall on their own sword at some point or be wounded by someone else.
I'm with you on this Tim. It relies on the ability of the person to see themselves as a warrior rather than powerless in their situation.
I reference some of the societal cuckoo on sacred victims and their enablers.
Are these your thoughts from reading the piece Tim? Tell me more!