That's an entirely different article which would basically state - 'don't bother, disengage, and walk away.'
Josh Slocum just published an excellent conversation with Psychiatrist Dr. Mark McDonald that covered a lot of territory on BPD and feedback. So illuminating and well worth listening to in its entirety for a conversation you won't hear elsewhere.
Thanks Natalie, my husband and I are dealing with a disaster BPD situation… and on the other hand a savage narcissistic personality! Talk about a double dilemma
Oy vey Rachael - double trouble x 1000. I think you'll get a lot out of the podcast that you could apply to your current dilemma. Sending you all the positive vibes to help you get through it!
"Employees who raise concerns may be met with retaliation, gaslighting, or sudden restructuring moves that push them out."
This is absolutely true. It happened to me after I called out a VP for their behavior in multiple meetings. In one instance my engineering team and I collected mounds of data to improve a manufacturing process. We made sure that we had statistically relevant samples sizes, control samples, standards to compare against, etc. We presented all of the data and trends with recommendations for improvements to the VP. He looked at us, said it was "bullshit" and attacked the competence of every person in the room. One person was in tears from the confrontation. I raised the issue with HR and my concerns were dismissed because this VP was a "long time, critical employee." Shortly after that my team was moved under another engineer and I was completely removed from that manufacturing area. I quit the next day and thankfully had a new job lined up.
Nathalie, right here. This is what I can read over and over again.
My ‘heart is choking’ was a description that I read today for someone experiencing heart break. When someone is pervasively not being accountable as described here, to me, it’s an unexplainable heartbreak, painful and disorienting.
I appreciate the way you describe and detangle the relational aspects. It hits deep.
And also both sides, it enables me to pay attention to my own accountability. Thank you!
Very insightful! I see exactly what all this is saying and I'm worried a couple of items might be things I do thinking that I'm helping... Is there a list of healthy ways to handle conflict?
I honestly hadn’t considered the idea that feedback is inconsequential and even potentially counterproductive. It explains a lot about behavior among my female friends for example. When I have given feedback, I’ve created strife. When I’ve attempted holding someone accountable for pain, it’s been exactly the cycle you said (notably with my wealthy former mother in law).
In response to your question though, I’m actually not sure what to do anymore with someone averse to taking responsibility. Personal responsibility for behavior in general is rejected by modern feminist “thought”, so we go through life just doing shit and not expecting consequences. I suppose I have a threshold. If you consistently can’t accept your own role in your outcomes and behavior toward others, I have nothing to learn from you.
Interesting reflection! I think the whole idea of feedback is so loaded because of our individual experiences of authorities using criticism for control instead of observations that encourage and motivate growth. It can be difficult to enough to receive feedback when you trust the person giving it let alone someone we don't know that well.
Your personal philosophy about emotionally detaching from those who can't do accountability will save your energy. I think in this day of some women having gone too far into hyperempowerment, giving feedback isn't going to do much unless your social status is through the roof. I think the next level of 'holding someone accountable' is to revoke access to things that matter to them...even if it's me. Harsh but I'm not sure what else to do.
Thank you, Nathalie! This goes along perfectly with my strategies I’ve adopted since studying NPD. Your statement above to Rachel makes sense. The info here is the knowledge survivors need to recognize this sick framework and accept/surrender to what is that can’t be fixed. We can only navigate the behavior problems and we must do it in a healthy stance. It’s not about being “right” with these people. It’s about staying sane!
This article was so insightful, as well as practical. I enjoyed reading it. Narcissism is a hot topic; you give real solutions to dealing with these difficult people. Don't let them take your power away and limit energy into confrontational conversations. It's just not worth it. I would love to read more!
Great post Nathalie! One example: Our USA President screaming for accountability while he has never once demonstrated it: “A political leader is confronted about past harmful policies. Instead of acknowledging his role, he shifts blame to previous administrations, claims his words were taken out of context, or gaslights the public by stating the issue isn’t as bad as it seems.”
Yes, but this isn’t just ‘politicians being politicians.’ There’s one political leader currently in power who’s made accountability avoidance into an art form—and it’s the very same one constantly demanding it from others.
What about the borderline person disorders? They can’t take an ounce of criticism without turning you into their worst enemy.
That's an entirely different article which would basically state - 'don't bother, disengage, and walk away.'
Josh Slocum just published an excellent conversation with Psychiatrist Dr. Mark McDonald that covered a lot of territory on BPD and feedback. So illuminating and well worth listening to in its entirety for a conversation you won't hear elsewhere.
https://disaffectedpod.substack.com/p/a-shrink-and-a-podcaster
Thanks Natalie, my husband and I are dealing with a disaster BPD situation… and on the other hand a savage narcissistic personality! Talk about a double dilemma
Oy vey Rachael - double trouble x 1000. I think you'll get a lot out of the podcast that you could apply to your current dilemma. Sending you all the positive vibes to help you get through it!
"Employees who raise concerns may be met with retaliation, gaslighting, or sudden restructuring moves that push them out."
This is absolutely true. It happened to me after I called out a VP for their behavior in multiple meetings. In one instance my engineering team and I collected mounds of data to improve a manufacturing process. We made sure that we had statistically relevant samples sizes, control samples, standards to compare against, etc. We presented all of the data and trends with recommendations for improvements to the VP. He looked at us, said it was "bullshit" and attacked the competence of every person in the room. One person was in tears from the confrontation. I raised the issue with HR and my concerns were dismissed because this VP was a "long time, critical employee." Shortly after that my team was moved under another engineer and I was completely removed from that manufacturing area. I quit the next day and thankfully had a new job lined up.
Nathalie, right here. This is what I can read over and over again.
My ‘heart is choking’ was a description that I read today for someone experiencing heart break. When someone is pervasively not being accountable as described here, to me, it’s an unexplainable heartbreak, painful and disorienting.
I appreciate the way you describe and detangle the relational aspects. It hits deep.
And also both sides, it enables me to pay attention to my own accountability. Thank you!
Very insightful! I see exactly what all this is saying and I'm worried a couple of items might be things I do thinking that I'm helping... Is there a list of healthy ways to handle conflict?
I honestly hadn’t considered the idea that feedback is inconsequential and even potentially counterproductive. It explains a lot about behavior among my female friends for example. When I have given feedback, I’ve created strife. When I’ve attempted holding someone accountable for pain, it’s been exactly the cycle you said (notably with my wealthy former mother in law).
In response to your question though, I’m actually not sure what to do anymore with someone averse to taking responsibility. Personal responsibility for behavior in general is rejected by modern feminist “thought”, so we go through life just doing shit and not expecting consequences. I suppose I have a threshold. If you consistently can’t accept your own role in your outcomes and behavior toward others, I have nothing to learn from you.
Interesting reflection! I think the whole idea of feedback is so loaded because of our individual experiences of authorities using criticism for control instead of observations that encourage and motivate growth. It can be difficult to enough to receive feedback when you trust the person giving it let alone someone we don't know that well.
Your personal philosophy about emotionally detaching from those who can't do accountability will save your energy. I think in this day of some women having gone too far into hyperempowerment, giving feedback isn't going to do much unless your social status is through the roof. I think the next level of 'holding someone accountable' is to revoke access to things that matter to them...even if it's me. Harsh but I'm not sure what else to do.
I am always looking for ways to remedy whatever blockage exists between me and people but I’m coming to see that I need to pick my battles better.
Thank you, Nathalie! This goes along perfectly with my strategies I’ve adopted since studying NPD. Your statement above to Rachel makes sense. The info here is the knowledge survivors need to recognize this sick framework and accept/surrender to what is that can’t be fixed. We can only navigate the behavior problems and we must do it in a healthy stance. It’s not about being “right” with these people. It’s about staying sane!
It's about staying sane - EXACTLY Suzanne! Thank you for reading!
This article was so insightful, as well as practical. I enjoyed reading it. Narcissism is a hot topic; you give real solutions to dealing with these difficult people. Don't let them take your power away and limit energy into confrontational conversations. It's just not worth it. I would love to read more!
Great post Nathalie! One example: Our USA President screaming for accountability while he has never once demonstrated it: “A political leader is confronted about past harmful policies. Instead of acknowledging his role, he shifts blame to previous administrations, claims his words were taken out of context, or gaslights the public by stating the issue isn’t as bad as it seems.”
Politiicians are great at accountability aversion - it's their most endearing quality!
Yes, but this isn’t just ‘politicians being politicians.’ There’s one political leader currently in power who’s made accountability avoidance into an art form—and it’s the very same one constantly demanding it from others.