Thank you @Kate Wand! I think Narcissistic family system needs the invisible child as a potential stand in for any of the characters who temporarily or permanently leaves the immediate family. I also think the Invisible child is like the muted neutral party in the family. The child that doesn’t evoke any negative or positive feelings in the Narc parent so it’s one less character that triggers the narc parent’s defenses/shame.
The invisible child can also be symbolic of the Divine presence that is often ignored or dismissed in its role in family blessings. The invisible child is often working behind the scenes to smooth things over or improve something in the hope of being noticed and praised. Perhaps the invisible child is the reminder that divine is an unseen presence except by those who can behold its divinity.
Well young lady, I'll grant you, that was pretty darn good. The model fits, but hits a bit too close to home, so I'm not going to comment *that much.* I would however argue that other external factors are at play in these group dynamics we are seeing, of greatest importance those being *information networks.* Your model speaks loudly, perhaps, to susceptibility to such networks, but those networks have a key effect, regardless.
For example, you ask why the apparent silence in regards to ongoing crimes "in Yemen, Sudan, Congo, North Korea, Iran, and other nations that use women and children for war and punishment?" My answer would be straight-forward: because a clearly uniform and therefore "controlled" mass media choose not to make those things an issue. Propaganda matters, a lot; it's a very real thing.
Now, these networks would include not just the MSM but cultural norms, family links, and yes, the self-reinforcing loop that is found in the modern western university, to be sure, with perhaps that last element the most powerful for those subjected to it. But a VERY important thing worth noting is that the nutcases, as I consider them in *the ways they express themselves* as well as, sometimes, their stated objectives, have existed in their very extreme forms for at least the past, OMG, four decades now. Not joking. I remember with clarity gays and lesbians marching about on my campus screaming "we're here, we're queer, and we're in your face!" Along with that old time favorite "no tolerance for intolerance!" Never big into self-awareness, those guys. And now it's gone from LGB to, well, you know the thing, as Biden would say.
And who was leading them, nearly *ever single time,* during these decades? It's not a joke, it's not a stereotype, it's not a trope, it's not a falsehood. Leading these folks, who had "straight white males" at the top of their "to hate" list just happened to *almost always* be "Jews." Ashkenazi's who didn't believe in God, interestingly enough, and, as I later discovered directly and to my great surprise, considered Palestinians (yes, even back then) to be "sub-humans." Yes, that's a real quote from a real exchange with a neighbor I had at the time, which blew my freaking mind.
But something happened on the way to the revolution. As I expected and tried to warn the many radical “Jewish” friends I had at the time, this concept they called “white” was going to generalize to include "Jews," straight up. No doubt, no question, don’t pass go, right off to the stereotype jail do you go and all that.
Now, granted, I didn’t see the colonialism angle, but still, this has happened, and now we are seeing those protest groups not only stupidly ejecting “Jews” and protesting Israel, but also the very real powers behind the curtain showing their hand in cracking down on these protests, finding a quite out of character appreciation for individualism and merit. Well, YEA. That ought to have been the primary object the whole time, ya know? Race creed and color subordinate to Citizenship. That's the way it's supposed to be.
So, where am I going with this? I’m saying that those expressing themselves in crazy fashion were formed, trained, and riled up by those they are now protesting, and that’s as ironic as it was predictable. Now, were they more susceptible to this on account of family dynamics and other factors? Yes, I would agree many of the most extreme fruits and nuts are. I would add to this that historically those striving to create “revolutionary movements” often used to effect criminal, unstable, and outright insane societal elements in order to destabilize society. Upon achieving power these same “useful idiots” would be among the first to die, however, as “the revolution eats its own.”
Now, that’s with the protests. Let’s consider your application of the theory you’re applying to the conflict in East Europe, where you suggested it was akin to an angry father denying his son agency. Well, first off young lady, it’s *Mother Russia,* so that’s 5 years in the gulag right there, you. Don’t worry, they have the best borscht 🤣. This joke I couldn’t resist expressed, I see the use of this analogy to portray and teach the workings of the model in question, for sure, and I think that’s clearly all you were really trying to do. So, all is forgiven. You can still have some borscht if you want, however, my treat.
I would like to stress again my appreciation for your efforts to bridge small group (family) dynamics and international relations. I think this a fruitful area of exploration and highly intriguing. And as for the model itself, I think it fits, just as Freud’s model fit and so did Skinner’s in terms of explanatory power (but it’s a lot nicer than Skinner’s; who wants to be considered a mere reacting vessel with zero actual agency?). I can see how conceptualizing oneself in the roles presented could be of assistance in overcoming the kind of dysfunctional training that can come with family dynamics, and thus its clear utility in therapy.
Now, turning to Palestine in detail, I can only say “wow, lady, you know your biblical and actual history, gee wiz!” And again, your application of the model in question is a *great* way to illustrate the working parts of that model in order to teach it. Is it *actually* applicable in solving or understanding that real world problem, however? I’m not so sure about that.
Not to say *I* know how to solve that damn problem. I don’t. Max Blumenthal has forgotten more than I ever knew about the whole of the Middle East, and I don’t think he could solve it. Here I become highly practical and hard core, so to speak. If I could wave a magic wand, I would disarm all of Israel and Palestine and fill the place end to end with Blue Helmets carrying stun guns and clubs. Yea, that’s totally realistic, right?
Of course it’s not. Like I said, I don’t know how to fix this mess. But I can say that clear ongoing violations of the Geneva Conventions are unacceptable and must be not only addressed, but stopped. Like an inner city police force faced with a gang problem, the gangs themselves cannot perhaps be reformed, but flooding the zone and mandating law and order still needs to be done, push comes to shove.
An interesting side note—you mention the puzzle of why crazy left wingers would be advocating for the likes of Iran, where they would be immediately put in prison for doing what they do and believing what they believe. Here again, your explanation is intriguing and useful in teaching the model, but I would put fourth a much more base explanation, that being *perceived* outgroup threats produce ingroup solidarity, even to the point of freaking insanity; and insane many of our friends on “the left” have become. They have been conditioned, in the most classic sense, to hate all things remotely “European,” remotely “white,” remotely “western,” to the point that glaring contradictions go ignored.
Conditioned by who and why? By wanna be revolutionaries who, for whatever reason, seek to destroy whatever it is that holds together Western Civilization, driven perhaps by instinct or impulse, the way termites would inherently attack the foundations of a house. Thus extreme relativism, extreme subjectivity, extreme naval gazing distractions presented to the youth under the guise of “gender identity.”
And here we come again full circle to this war in Ukraine. In all honesty, it looks like a large part for this “western” hatred of the Russian Federation is that she’s not “infected,” if you will, with the civilization-attacking seeds that are eating the west. She’s not going with the program, if you will. No child cutting, no anti-family propaganda, etc., and it's driving these revolutionary elements among us up the wall, so much so they actually DO want a nuclear war. They are THAT crazy.
Hey, this has been a *very* long response, but I’ve done my best to be honest in my appreciation of the current world situation and I *do* value your efforts. Nor am I claiming I have any kind of lock on reality here. It’s just the best I can do, while I cling to the Geneva Conventions and International Human Rights law, looking for guidance and fence-posts.
.. most certainly the greatest ‘reply I’ve ever read .. ! Was on my ‘third attempt at the Everest of the Article ITSELF ! What can this ‘feral child of 73 do but at some point - return for an I’LL BE BACK ! 4th Attempt ! And stay in shape via studying the potential mischievous backtrail of the ‘Replier .. & have a looksee 🏴☠️🦎🍁
The tired old trope of "Why do westerners care about this and not that."
It's very simple. Western governments are not directly complicit in those other atrocities, while most are materially supporting Israel. Pretending westerners have an equivalent relation to every atrocity around the world is dishonest.
"Yemen, Sudan, Congo, North Korea, Iran"
Most western governments are actively hostile to each of these nations, they do not hold them up as allies like Israel.
Ansar Allah, North Korea, and Japan are not committing literal genocide, that’s why? I don’t know about the states of Congo and Sudan. Somebody’s committing a genocide in those places but I’m not sure it’s the state.
Ansar Allah, North Korea, Japan do not commit genocides. Ansar Allah and North Korea have never genocided a soul. Many strict criteria have to be met to qualify as a genocide.
One of your best! Fascinating analysis. People rarely delve into the invisible child. Ignore them at your peril!
Why do you think Narcissistic systems need invisible children?
Thank you @Kate Wand! I think Narcissistic family system needs the invisible child as a potential stand in for any of the characters who temporarily or permanently leaves the immediate family. I also think the Invisible child is like the muted neutral party in the family. The child that doesn’t evoke any negative or positive feelings in the Narc parent so it’s one less character that triggers the narc parent’s defenses/shame.
The invisible child can also be symbolic of the Divine presence that is often ignored or dismissed in its role in family blessings. The invisible child is often working behind the scenes to smooth things over or improve something in the hope of being noticed and praised. Perhaps the invisible child is the reminder that divine is an unseen presence except by those who can behold its divinity.
Well young lady, I'll grant you, that was pretty darn good. The model fits, but hits a bit too close to home, so I'm not going to comment *that much.* I would however argue that other external factors are at play in these group dynamics we are seeing, of greatest importance those being *information networks.* Your model speaks loudly, perhaps, to susceptibility to such networks, but those networks have a key effect, regardless.
For example, you ask why the apparent silence in regards to ongoing crimes "in Yemen, Sudan, Congo, North Korea, Iran, and other nations that use women and children for war and punishment?" My answer would be straight-forward: because a clearly uniform and therefore "controlled" mass media choose not to make those things an issue. Propaganda matters, a lot; it's a very real thing.
Now, these networks would include not just the MSM but cultural norms, family links, and yes, the self-reinforcing loop that is found in the modern western university, to be sure, with perhaps that last element the most powerful for those subjected to it. But a VERY important thing worth noting is that the nutcases, as I consider them in *the ways they express themselves* as well as, sometimes, their stated objectives, have existed in their very extreme forms for at least the past, OMG, four decades now. Not joking. I remember with clarity gays and lesbians marching about on my campus screaming "we're here, we're queer, and we're in your face!" Along with that old time favorite "no tolerance for intolerance!" Never big into self-awareness, those guys. And now it's gone from LGB to, well, you know the thing, as Biden would say.
And who was leading them, nearly *ever single time,* during these decades? It's not a joke, it's not a stereotype, it's not a trope, it's not a falsehood. Leading these folks, who had "straight white males" at the top of their "to hate" list just happened to *almost always* be "Jews." Ashkenazi's who didn't believe in God, interestingly enough, and, as I later discovered directly and to my great surprise, considered Palestinians (yes, even back then) to be "sub-humans." Yes, that's a real quote from a real exchange with a neighbor I had at the time, which blew my freaking mind.
But something happened on the way to the revolution. As I expected and tried to warn the many radical “Jewish” friends I had at the time, this concept they called “white” was going to generalize to include "Jews," straight up. No doubt, no question, don’t pass go, right off to the stereotype jail do you go and all that.
Now, granted, I didn’t see the colonialism angle, but still, this has happened, and now we are seeing those protest groups not only stupidly ejecting “Jews” and protesting Israel, but also the very real powers behind the curtain showing their hand in cracking down on these protests, finding a quite out of character appreciation for individualism and merit. Well, YEA. That ought to have been the primary object the whole time, ya know? Race creed and color subordinate to Citizenship. That's the way it's supposed to be.
So, where am I going with this? I’m saying that those expressing themselves in crazy fashion were formed, trained, and riled up by those they are now protesting, and that’s as ironic as it was predictable. Now, were they more susceptible to this on account of family dynamics and other factors? Yes, I would agree many of the most extreme fruits and nuts are. I would add to this that historically those striving to create “revolutionary movements” often used to effect criminal, unstable, and outright insane societal elements in order to destabilize society. Upon achieving power these same “useful idiots” would be among the first to die, however, as “the revolution eats its own.”
Now, that’s with the protests. Let’s consider your application of the theory you’re applying to the conflict in East Europe, where you suggested it was akin to an angry father denying his son agency. Well, first off young lady, it’s *Mother Russia,* so that’s 5 years in the gulag right there, you. Don’t worry, they have the best borscht 🤣. This joke I couldn’t resist expressed, I see the use of this analogy to portray and teach the workings of the model in question, for sure, and I think that’s clearly all you were really trying to do. So, all is forgiven. You can still have some borscht if you want, however, my treat.
I would like to stress again my appreciation for your efforts to bridge small group (family) dynamics and international relations. I think this a fruitful area of exploration and highly intriguing. And as for the model itself, I think it fits, just as Freud’s model fit and so did Skinner’s in terms of explanatory power (but it’s a lot nicer than Skinner’s; who wants to be considered a mere reacting vessel with zero actual agency?). I can see how conceptualizing oneself in the roles presented could be of assistance in overcoming the kind of dysfunctional training that can come with family dynamics, and thus its clear utility in therapy.
Now, turning to Palestine in detail, I can only say “wow, lady, you know your biblical and actual history, gee wiz!” And again, your application of the model in question is a *great* way to illustrate the working parts of that model in order to teach it. Is it *actually* applicable in solving or understanding that real world problem, however? I’m not so sure about that.
Not to say *I* know how to solve that damn problem. I don’t. Max Blumenthal has forgotten more than I ever knew about the whole of the Middle East, and I don’t think he could solve it. Here I become highly practical and hard core, so to speak. If I could wave a magic wand, I would disarm all of Israel and Palestine and fill the place end to end with Blue Helmets carrying stun guns and clubs. Yea, that’s totally realistic, right?
Of course it’s not. Like I said, I don’t know how to fix this mess. But I can say that clear ongoing violations of the Geneva Conventions are unacceptable and must be not only addressed, but stopped. Like an inner city police force faced with a gang problem, the gangs themselves cannot perhaps be reformed, but flooding the zone and mandating law and order still needs to be done, push comes to shove.
An interesting side note—you mention the puzzle of why crazy left wingers would be advocating for the likes of Iran, where they would be immediately put in prison for doing what they do and believing what they believe. Here again, your explanation is intriguing and useful in teaching the model, but I would put fourth a much more base explanation, that being *perceived* outgroup threats produce ingroup solidarity, even to the point of freaking insanity; and insane many of our friends on “the left” have become. They have been conditioned, in the most classic sense, to hate all things remotely “European,” remotely “white,” remotely “western,” to the point that glaring contradictions go ignored.
Conditioned by who and why? By wanna be revolutionaries who, for whatever reason, seek to destroy whatever it is that holds together Western Civilization, driven perhaps by instinct or impulse, the way termites would inherently attack the foundations of a house. Thus extreme relativism, extreme subjectivity, extreme naval gazing distractions presented to the youth under the guise of “gender identity.”
And here we come again full circle to this war in Ukraine. In all honesty, it looks like a large part for this “western” hatred of the Russian Federation is that she’s not “infected,” if you will, with the civilization-attacking seeds that are eating the west. She’s not going with the program, if you will. No child cutting, no anti-family propaganda, etc., and it's driving these revolutionary elements among us up the wall, so much so they actually DO want a nuclear war. They are THAT crazy.
Hey, this has been a *very* long response, but I’ve done my best to be honest in my appreciation of the current world situation and I *do* value your efforts. Nor am I claiming I have any kind of lock on reality here. It’s just the best I can do, while I cling to the Geneva Conventions and International Human Rights law, looking for guidance and fence-posts.
.. most certainly the greatest ‘reply I’ve ever read .. ! Was on my ‘third attempt at the Everest of the Article ITSELF ! What can this ‘feral child of 73 do but at some point - return for an I’LL BE BACK ! 4th Attempt ! And stay in shape via studying the potential mischievous backtrail of the ‘Replier .. & have a looksee 🏴☠️🦎🍁
The Jews, seen as the most visible and direct agents of change.
and JEWS...the most EXPELLED group in human history...
The tired old trope of "Why do westerners care about this and not that."
It's very simple. Western governments are not directly complicit in those other atrocities, while most are materially supporting Israel. Pretending westerners have an equivalent relation to every atrocity around the world is dishonest.
"Yemen, Sudan, Congo, North Korea, Iran"
Most western governments are actively hostile to each of these nations, they do not hold them up as allies like Israel.
They do not commit genocide, just cutting girls genitalia at age 7. Nothing to see here. Free Tibet and move on
Sudan, Iran, North Korea, and Iran do not use women and children in war or as punishment. I’m not sure what’s up with Congo and Sudan.
Ansar Allah, North Korea, and Japan are not committing literal genocide, that’s why? I don’t know about the states of Congo and Sudan. Somebody’s committing a genocide in those places but I’m not sure it’s the state.
Ansar Allah, North Korea, Japan do not commit genocides. Ansar Allah and North Korea have never genocided a soul. Many strict criteria have to be met to qualify as a genocide.
North Korea... what do you mean literal ?