29 Comments
User's avatar
Kelly Thompson TNWWY's avatar

Curious what you think of an autistic who does not recognize hierarchy from birth. I wonder if that’s evolutionary. And they’re more capable of equal relationships- not to over simplify it. And by recognize, I mean, don’t respect hierarchy not that they’re unaware of hierarchy. They may value truth, logic, and fairness over arbitrary social structures, may not see status or authority as inherently meaningful if it doesn’t align with integrity or competence, and are often less influenced by social norms that dictate deference or conformity to power. That seems evolved beyond the typical rivalry and struggle for position and status underpinning - for example - narcissism.

Expand full comment
Ankur's avatar

Quite interesting portion on 'mother wound'.

So many mothers like fathers of old, project their desires and trauma on their daughters and live vicariously through them...they project their own buried desires and resentments on their daughters and push them hard never to compromise, never to bend, to compete with men and always chase career, never apologise even when they're dead wrong. And then few years down the line, we are surprised to see some crazy narcissistic girls out there...

But karma catches up. We're seeing more and more kids, especially daughters estranged from their parents..1 in 4 I believe, which is a crazy high number. The very daughter who was groomed to always put her needs first, decides to do the same with her parents...

Snake eating its own tail, I guess.

Expand full comment
Nathalie Martinek PhD's avatar

The moral of the story is don't project your inadequacies and unfulfilled desires onto your daughters!

Expand full comment
Ankur's avatar

yup. All projection i think is a sign of ego...we're unconsciously using the other person rather than letting him or her be and find their own way...

Expand full comment
Dr. Paul's avatar

In Greek mythology, Limos was the personification of starvation, famine, and hunger. She was the opposite of Demeter, the goddess of the harvest, with whom she could never meet.

https://mysteryinhistory.com/limos/

Expand full comment
Anna's avatar

I appreciated the interview as it allowed me to connect my experiences with narcissism. I've also come to see it as a spectrum. We are all capable of exhibiting narcissistic behavior at times, especially under stress. Viewing relationships as "two individuals trying to meet their needs" creates conditions where compassion is possible rather than blame. I find when I'm able to adopt a more neutral stance, I approach relationships with more objectivity rather than reactivity.

Encountering seemingly irrational behavior in intimate relationships is confusing however. We all seek safety and comfort. This is especially true for a survivor such as myself. But, I've noticed some mental health professionals displaying covert narcissism, making me wary of overly 'nice' or ‘solicitous’ individuals. I routinely evaluate whether they can handle feedback, navigate personal conflict, or do they demand constant admiration or attention to bolster their image?

I have noticed that individuals exhibiting covert traits often have their own childhood trauma which often includes violence, shaming from a narcissistic parent. It makes sense that they learned to be the Peacekeeper in their family in attempt to shield them from harm. This realization helps me understand their maladaptive behaviors, though it doesn’t excuse the behavior. More than anything else, these men need to feel safe to let down their guard in a relationship.

Regarding the billionaire's wife, I empathize with her challenge of connecting with a high-powered partner who might struggle to transition from work to home life. Her needs likely extend beyond basic chores to meaningful intimacy including, perhaps, a better sex life.

The idea that hierarchy is inherent in all relationships is provocative. Achieving true egalitarianism is tough, as many engage in one-upmanship driven by a need for control.

Betrayal from a parent can deeply impact us. My mother’s painful remarks about wishing I had never been born have lingered with me, and I’ve realized I've carried intergenerational pain. A recent craniosacral therapy session made me question if that body pain that I was experiencing truly belonged to me. I only recently realized, that as a highly sensitive child, I held a lot of pain that didn't belong to me. Although I had no conscious awareness that this is what I did as a child to survive.

The idea that “her blueprint is a passive father who didn’t protect her from her mother” resonates with my experiences as well. This interview has helped me develop more compassion for myself. Thank you.

Expand full comment
Dr. Paul's avatar

Wow this is a deep connection between the interview and one’s personal life. Thanks for the feminine view counterpoint to the billionaire’s personal “lived experience.”

Also what I forgot to put in the mix is the similarities between narcissism as a “failure to mature” and the regression caused by trauma, that I’ve come to believe that every fight in a couple amounts to “one person’s trauma yelling at another person’s trauma” rather than assuming it’s always a narcissist vs an “empath”… thank you.

Expand full comment
Suzanne Bechtol's avatar

Radical acceptance!

Expand full comment
Yolette's avatar

I’m glad you mentioned how you see this played out in the spiritual community. Do you have a post specifically about this? Very important. Great video!

Expand full comment
Yolette's avatar

I’m glad you mentioned how you see this played out in the spiritual community. Do you have a post specifically about this? Very important. Great video!

Expand full comment
Nathalie Martinek PhD's avatar

Thank you for listening Yolette!

I have written a few pieces that describe aspects of spiritual communities that make them culty:

The Gurupreneur:

https://www.hackingnarcissism.com/p/gurupreneur

False sisterhood::

https://www.hackingnarcissism.com/p/mothersnotok

How to know if you’re in a cult and how to leave it:

https://www.hackingnarcissism.com/p/cult

The attributes of a narcissistic healer/spiritual teacher:

https://www.hackingnarcissism.com/p/malebeta

Enjoy!

Expand full comment
Dr. Paul's avatar

Nothing worse than trying to reprogram a culted family member…

Expand full comment
Dr. Paul's avatar

Oooo goodie!

Expand full comment
Gwen Konings's avatar

Thank you both for this very interesting and inspiring p(v)odcast. Great way to start my weekend with lots of food for thought!

Expand full comment
Nathalie Martinek PhD's avatar

Thanks for listening in Gwen!

Expand full comment
Kelly Thompson TNWWY's avatar

Was Cinderella a scapegoat?

Expand full comment
Nathalie Martinek PhD's avatar

It depends on the story you read because there are so many variations. I do think she is scapegoated because in the versions I’ve read, she’s blamed for things that go wrong with the step sisters

Expand full comment
Dr. Paul's avatar

Yes. When the multiple narcissists around her constantly blame shifted her and devalued her that’s somewhat definitive of scapegoating. Painful.

Expand full comment
Kelly Thompson TNWWY's avatar

Omg I am so sick of hierarchical relationships. It’s everywhere. Wait. Where am I in the rankings? 🤔

Expand full comment
Nathalie Martinek PhD's avatar

Ha! We only like that ones that benefit us 😉

Expand full comment
Kelly Thompson TNWWY's avatar

😉

Expand full comment
Dr. Paul's avatar

You’re ranked number 2 or 3! Powerful yet protected!

Expand full comment
Kelly Thompson TNWWY's avatar

🤔

Expand full comment
Jake Wiskerchen's avatar

Is there an audio-only podcast somewhere?

Expand full comment
Nathalie Martinek PhD's avatar

The only thing I can find is the audio only version in the post itself. I think if you hit the headphone icons in your control panel, it should give you this audio as an option in your feed

Expand full comment
Grow Some Labia's avatar

The audio was too low on this, especially for Dr. Paul. You have to sit right there to hear it, whereas usually I crank up podcasts & listen while I'm doing housework. Nathalie was easier to understand.

Expand full comment
Nathalie Martinek PhD's avatar

Thank you for this helpful feedback. Good audio makes the world go round!

Expand full comment
Suzanne Bechtol's avatar

Explained well—the stages of shame. Wow! Thank you!

Expand full comment
Nathalie Martinek PhD's avatar

Thank you for listening!

Expand full comment