Thank you
, , , , , and many others for tuning into my live video with !In this nearly 90-minute discussion
and I dive into covert narcissism, the interpersonal games people play, and the dynamics of power, gender, and myth. This conversation blends psychology, mythology, and lived experience to explore how narcissistic traits appear subtly across relationships, institutions, and even folklore. The conversation frequently returns to the metaphor of Cinderella, unpacking it as a model for healing from narcissistic abuse and as a path of individuation.Dr. Paul Dobransky, MD, is a Board-Certified Psychiatrist by the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology. He’s also a public educator, and theorist in the areas of human courtship and character growth who has treated more than 60,000 clients in nearly thirty years in clinical psychiatric care. You can find out more about him, his impressive and extensive body of work and clinical expertise by starting here.
We hope you enjoy this conversation and have some follow up questions for us!
Key Themes & Timestamps
| 00:00–04:00 | Introduction: Narcissism’s rise as a cultural concern; classical vs. modern views
| 04:00–09:00 | Covert narcissism: Passive, emotionally manipulative, insidious in relationships
| 09:00–14:00 | Narcissism and sex/gender: Archetypes, instincts, and societal expectations
| 14:00–20:00 | Empaths, saviour complexes, and narcissistic dynamics in therapeutic/spiritual settings
| 20:00–24:00 | Hierarchy vs. equality: Gendered ways of constructing social power
| 24:00–28:00 | Games people play: Wittgenstein, hidden workplace dynamics, “the game of love”
| 28:00–34:00 | Is narcissism learned or inherited? Personality disorders vs. character maturity
| 34:00–38:00 | Narcissistic mother-daughter dynamics, envy, and internalized voices
| 38:00–44:00 | Cinderella as myth: Narcissistic abuse, fairy godmother as divine self or higher power
| 44:00–50:00 | Spiritual interpretation of fairy tales, individuation, and narcissistic extraction of others
| 50:00–54:30 | Extractive dynamics: Narcissistic entitlement, "you exist to serve me," and the illusion of relational reciprocity
| 54:30–58:30 | Shame and performance: Hiding the self to maintain image, fear of rejection, and adaptations rooted in early shame
| 58:30–64:00 | Male shame: Cultural suppression of vulnerability in boys, leading to control, performance, or avoidance in adulthood
| 64:00–68:00 | Gendered responses to shame: Men externalize through domination, women internalize through compliance or self-erasure
| 68:00–72:00 | Healing shame: Repairing through relational safety, mirroring, and nonjudgmental presence
| 72:00–end | Individuation and humility: Letting go of heroic or victim identity to embrace emotional maturity and integration
Thank you Dr. Paul for supporting my work and for this overdue conversation!
Hack narcissism and support my work
I believe that a common threat to our individual and collective thriving is an addiction to power and control. This addiction fuels and is fuelled by greed - the desire to accumulate and control resources in social, information (and attention), economic, ecological, geographical and political systems.
While activists focus on fighting macro issues, I believe that activism also needs to focus on the micro issues - the narcissistic traits that pollute relationships between you and I, and between each other, without contributing to existing injustice. It’s not as exciting as fighting the Big Baddies yet hacking, resisting and overriding our tendencies to control others that also manifest as our macro issues is my full-time job.
I’m dedicated to helping people understand all the ways narcissistic traits infiltrate and taint our interpersonal, professional, organisational and political relationships, and provide strategies for narcissism hackers to fight back and find peace.
Here’s how you can help.
Order my book: The Little Book of Assertiveness: Speak up with confidence
Support my work:
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by inviting me to speak, deliver training or consult for your organisation
Curious what you think of an autistic who does not recognize hierarchy from birth. I wonder if that’s evolutionary. And they’re more capable of equal relationships- not to over simplify it. And by recognize, I mean, don’t respect hierarchy not that they’re unaware of hierarchy. They may value truth, logic, and fairness over arbitrary social structures, may not see status or authority as inherently meaningful if it doesn’t align with integrity or competence, and are often less influenced by social norms that dictate deference or conformity to power. That seems evolved beyond the typical rivalry and struggle for position and status underpinning - for example - narcissism.
Quite interesting portion on 'mother wound'.
So many mothers like fathers of old, project their desires and trauma on their daughters and live vicariously through them...they project their own buried desires and resentments on their daughters and push them hard never to compromise, never to bend, to compete with men and always chase career, never apologise even when they're dead wrong. And then few years down the line, we are surprised to see some crazy narcissistic girls out there...
But karma catches up. We're seeing more and more kids, especially daughters estranged from their parents..1 in 4 I believe, which is a crazy high number. The very daughter who was groomed to always put her needs first, decides to do the same with her parents...
Snake eating its own tail, I guess.
Very important that you pointed out a demon vs deity thank you.
No probs!
Great exchange you two!
a great article for you to chew on: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/04/25/feminism-has-failed-women-career-no-family-thatcher/
I was once told by a Hindu holy man when I was a student in India that there was a folklore figure who had a hole in her stomach, and no matter how much she would eat the food went right out the hole, undigested for nutrients. “That is Narcissism” is what he said.
Hmm, being a Hindu myself, and quite holy at that, I'm wondering who that Lady was...
I’ve tried and tried to find the name of the deity. I was hoping you might know? A version of Kali?
No, I don’t think so. I think what you’re alluding to is less of a deity (god/goddess) and more of an Asura, a demon Lord. Kali we must remember is a noble Goddess who turns rogue right in the end. She is meant to unleash hell on sinners. Could it be a version of Soopnakha I wonder? Her tale is fascinating too…her story is being revisited in these crazy woke times.
Thank you
Yes I think this is right: Soopnakha
In Greek mythology, Limos was the personification of starvation, famine, and hunger. She was the opposite of Demeter, the goddess of the harvest, with whom she could never meet.
https://mysteryinhistory.com/limos/
great article for you to chew on.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2024/04/25/feminism-has-failed-women-career-no-family-thatcher/
The moral of the story is don't project your inadequacies and unfulfilled desires onto your daughters!
yup. All projection i think is a sign of ego...we're unconsciously using the other person rather than letting him or her be and find their own way...
I appreciated the interview as it allowed me to connect my experiences with narcissism. I've also come to see it as a spectrum. We are all capable of exhibiting narcissistic behavior at times, especially under stress. Viewing relationships as "two individuals trying to meet their needs" creates conditions where compassion is possible rather than blame. I find when I'm able to adopt a more neutral stance, I approach relationships with more objectivity rather than reactivity.
Encountering seemingly irrational behavior in intimate relationships is confusing however. We all seek safety and comfort. This is especially true for a survivor such as myself. But, I've noticed some mental health professionals displaying covert narcissism, making me wary of overly 'nice' or ‘solicitous’ individuals. I routinely evaluate whether they can handle feedback, navigate personal conflict, or do they demand constant admiration or attention to bolster their image?
I have noticed that individuals exhibiting covert traits often have their own childhood trauma which often includes violence, shaming from a narcissistic parent. It makes sense that they learned to be the Peacekeeper in their family in attempt to shield them from harm. This realization helps me understand their maladaptive behaviors, though it doesn’t excuse the behavior. More than anything else, these men need to feel safe to let down their guard in a relationship.
Regarding the billionaire's wife, I empathize with her challenge of connecting with a high-powered partner who might struggle to transition from work to home life. Her needs likely extend beyond basic chores to meaningful intimacy including, perhaps, a better sex life.
The idea that hierarchy is inherent in all relationships is provocative. Achieving true egalitarianism is tough, as many engage in one-upmanship driven by a need for control.
Betrayal from a parent can deeply impact us. My mother’s painful remarks about wishing I had never been born have lingered with me, and I’ve realized I've carried intergenerational pain. A recent craniosacral therapy session made me question if that body pain that I was experiencing truly belonged to me. I only recently realized, that as a highly sensitive child, I held a lot of pain that didn't belong to me. Although I had no conscious awareness that this is what I did as a child to survive.
The idea that “her blueprint is a passive father who didn’t protect her from her mother” resonates with my experiences as well. This interview has helped me develop more compassion for myself. Thank you.
Wow this is a deep connection between the interview and one’s personal life. Thanks for the feminine view counterpoint to the billionaire’s personal “lived experience.”
Also what I forgot to put in the mix is the similarities between narcissism as a “failure to mature” and the regression caused by trauma, that I’ve come to believe that every fight in a couple amounts to “one person’s trauma yelling at another person’s trauma” rather than assuming it’s always a narcissist vs an “empath”… thank you.
Radical acceptance!
I’m glad you mentioned how you see this played out in the spiritual community. Do you have a post specifically about this? Very important. Great video!
I’m glad you mentioned how you see this played out in the spiritual community. Do you have a post specifically about this? Very important. Great video!
Thank you for listening Yolette!
I have written a few pieces that describe aspects of spiritual communities that make them culty:
The Gurupreneur:
https://www.hackingnarcissism.com/p/gurupreneur
False sisterhood::
https://www.hackingnarcissism.com/p/mothersnotok
How to know if you’re in a cult and how to leave it:
https://www.hackingnarcissism.com/p/cult
The attributes of a narcissistic healer/spiritual teacher:
https://www.hackingnarcissism.com/p/malebeta
Enjoy!
Nothing worse than trying to reprogram a culted family member…
Oooo goodie!
Thank you both for this very interesting and inspiring p(v)odcast. Great way to start my weekend with lots of food for thought!
Thank you very much for your kind words!
Thanks for listening in Gwen!
Was Cinderella a scapegoat?
It depends on the story you read because there are so many variations. I do think she is scapegoated because in the versions I’ve read, she’s blamed for things that go wrong with the step sisters
Yes. When the multiple narcissists around her constantly blame shifted her and devalued her that’s somewhat definitive of scapegoating. Painful.
Omg I am so sick of hierarchical relationships. It’s everywhere. Wait. Where am I in the rankings? 🤔
Ha! We only like that ones that benefit us 😉
😉
lol!😂
You’re ranked number 2 or 3! Powerful yet protected!
🤔
Is there an audio-only podcast somewhere?
The only thing I can find is the audio only version in the post itself. I think if you hit the headphone icons in your control panel, it should give you this audio as an option in your feed
The audio was too low on this, especially for Dr. Paul. You have to sit right there to hear it, whereas usually I crank up podcasts & listen while I'm doing housework. Nathalie was easier to understand.
Thank you for this helpful feedback. Good audio makes the world go round!
Explained well—the stages of shame. Wow! Thank you!
Thank you for listening!